Has anyone ever had their SPS die due to Dosing Spectracide for Nitrates?

Randyp79

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My question was more specifically what did you prepare that sample you sent to triton. Did you make a 1ppm nitrate solution? Did you do a 10 ppm solution? I ask because if you did a low concentration solution, the contaminant might be at low enough levels that it couldn't be detected by the IPC-MS, but as you are dosing that to your tank it builds up. Analytical assays have a limit of detection and a limit of quantification. Another thing to think about is that it is possible that the IPC test is tuned towards testing sea water samples and if you submitted a potassium nitrate solution in RODI water it might not be able to assay correctly (not something I have confirmed with triton to some assays are matrix sensitive).
I sent in a sample of my aquarium water not the spectracide.
 

ihavecrabs

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I had my PO4 bottom out when I started dosing KNO3. That caused a few corals to look ticked off, but I was testing daily so caught it in time and was able to react.

Otherwise, no concerns.
 

dew9000

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I had my PO4 bottom out when I started dosing KNO3. That caused a few corals to look ****** off, but I was testing daily so caught it in time and was able to react.

Otherwise, no concerns.

This could be the case for me and I didn't catch until a week into it and the damage has already been done even though I have now got phosphates back up. I think they were already really low to begin with but I wasn't sure until I got the ULR vs the regular checker. The first corals to show signs were all my montis - they started bleaching then the acros started to STN.
 
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aarbutina

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I had my PO4 bottom out when I started dosing KNO3. That caused a few corals to look ****** off, but I was testing daily so caught it in time and was able to react.

Otherwise, no concerns.


I have been monitoring PO4 consistently while i have been undertaking this process and did not observed level dropping to zero. They were always at or near the desired range of approximately 0.02 ppm.
 

ihavecrabs

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I don't agree. 4 people doesn't account for the rest of us that have fixed stn with dosing nutrients and specifically spectracide. You have to account for po4 dropping, alk reductions, as well as other parameters.
This...

In my case PO4 did drop dangerously low after I started dosing KNO3 and I did get small amounts of STN (my red planet took the brunt of it and is still half STN'd) but I reacted quickly to it and dosed phosphate to bring it back into range.
 

ihavecrabs

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I have been monitoring PO4 consistently while i have been undertaking this process and did not observed level dropping to zero. They were always at or near the desired range of approximately 0.02 ppm.
Hmm good to know.
 

Graffiti Spot

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Lots of things can get out of whack when using this stuff and not being careful to watch your corals reactions. I think a lot of people are throwing things out of balance using this product and causing issues. I only use it once a week or two to lower phosphates and raise nitrates since I am using a carbon source. Starting with a random calculated dose and continuing it daily without watching reactions before the next dose is asking for trouble. I would guess more people start this way since people say it works great and it always seems to be a suggestion to someones tank issues.
The first dose may give a good result too, then the next dose bumps something off and starts the chain reaction. I don't even measure the powder anymore. I just pour about what I think I need in the cap and dump it in the cup, stir for a min and in the tank.
 
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aarbutina

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Lots of things can get out of whack when using this stuff and not being careful to watch your corals reactions. I think a lot of people are throwing things out of balance using this product and causing issues. I only use it once a week or two to lower phosphates and raise nitrates since I am using a carbon source. Starting with a random calculated dose and continuing it daily without watching reactions before the next dose is asking for trouble. I would guess more people start this way since people say it works great and it always seems to be a suggestion to someones tank issues.
The first dose may give a good result too, then the next dose bumps something off and starts the chain reaction. I don't even measure the powder anymore. I just pour about what I think I need in the cap and dump it in the cup, stir for a min and in the tank.

When you say a lot of things can be thrown out balance can you give examples of these things?

I can walk us through and example... lets say you have a nitrogen limited tank with some detectable levels of phosphate. Once you start dosing a nitrate reaction that depend on nitrate to consume phosphate will increase. These reaction could results in the increase metabolism of these "nutrients" by things like bacteria, algae, and even corals. If you let these reaction continue to run by continuing to add nitrate and monitoring or supplementing the phosphates the reaction will continue until all available phosphate is used and now the system becomes phosphate limited. But if you are monitoring to ensure you phosphates aren't bottoming out, I don't see anything that is out of whack here. Similarly if your coral now start increasing in their growth rate due to the newly available nutrients and you don't adjust your major element dosing (alk, ca, mg) those can fall out of balance, but you you are monitoring and adjusting to maintain desired levels there shouldn't be any issues. Likewise the K, NA, or Ca level could drift as they are the counter ion in the Nitrate salt, but if monitoring actively this shouldn't be a probably.

Can you think of other examples beyond these? Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to simulate conversation.
 
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aarbutina

aarbutina

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I don't agree. 4 people doesn't account for the rest of us that have fixed stn with dosing nutrients and specifically spectracide. You have to account for po4 dropping, alk reductions, as well as other parameters.

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. My question was has anyone else ever seen issues in their tanks after starting to dose spectracide. I have also stated in numerous locations that many many people experience very positive effect of using this to supplement N03. Just because it works for a large number of people doesn't mean that some people wouldn't experience some negative. Lets just say for a second, all the people on this thread who experienced negative effects just happened to have the same lot (batch) of chemical (unlikely but just as a thought exercise let pretend like that was the case). What if on the day they were making this Spectracide some how that batch became contaminated with some trace element that is harmful to coral and this was the only batch that ever had this happen. The people who used that batch in there tanks would have a negative experience while everyone else saw nothing but great things. You would be surprised at how often things like his actually happen in chemical manufacturing.

To you second point, I do feel like my OP did lay out that I have actively been monitoring and accounting for fluctuations in the system. I did not see my P04 level drop out, my alkalinity remained samples, as did all of the major testing parameters that most people actively monitor.
 

dew9000

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I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. My question was has anyone else ever seen issues in their tanks after starting to dose spectracide. I have also stated in numerous locations that many many people experience very positive effect of using this to supplement N03. Just because it works for a large number of people doesn't mean that some people wouldn't experience some negative. Lets just say for a second, all the people on this thread who experienced negative effects just happened to have the same lot (batch) of chemical (unlikely but just as a thought exercise let pretend like that was the case). What if on the day they were making this Spectracide some how that batch became contaminated with some trace element that is harmful to coral and this was the only batch that ever had this happen. The people who used that batch in there tanks would have a negative experience while everyone else saw nothing but great things. You would be surprised at how often things like his actually happen in chemical manufacturing.

To you second point, I do feel like my OP did lay out that I have actively been monitoring and accounting for fluctuations in the system. I did not see my P04 level drop out, my alkalinity remained samples, as did all of the major testing parameters that most people actively monitor.

I agree it is a possibility. I definitely regret not just buying lab grade KNO3 online vs the stump remover. I also don't feel that a Triton test is 100% going to indicate if a contaminant is the issue or not. Just think of all the possible contaminates/chemicals that could be in the stump remover that could be detrimental to SPS that Triton doesn't test for. Triton is mostly testing what would naturally be found in sea water.
 
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aarbutina

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I agree it is a possibility. I definitely regret not just buying lab grade KNO3 online vs the stump remover. I also don't feel that a Triton test is 100% going to indicate if a contaminant is the issue or not. Just think of all the possible contaminates/chemicals that could be in the stump remover that could be detrimental to SPS that Triton doesn't test for. Triton is mostly testing what would naturally be found in sea water.

Correct, I work in the pharma industry and have been involved in a number of trace contaminate investigations.... sometimes you never find what the exact cause is. The detection systems just aren't sensitive enough.
 

reeferfoxx

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Lets just say for a second, all the people on this thread who experienced negative effects just happened to have the same lot (batch) of chemical (unlikely but just as a thought exercise let pretend like that was the case).
This would be a fair assessment. I'm not trying to argue the fact entirely but in the sake of pointing out a specific product, other equations need to be factored. I would like to stress the risks of allowing N to deplete prior to fixing the issue and understanding that the damage could have coincidentally already been made. I guess my point was to respectfully decline the possibility that spectracide was the problem but anything is possible.
 

BigJohnny

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I know a hand full of people personally that have lost there tank to this , the problem Is that the potassium (K) spikes and shocks everything, so as of now it’s going to be recovery mode, sorry that’s just what has been presented to me.
That's not possible unless you dose an insane amount of potassium nitrate, very little potassium added.
 

thejuice24

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I haven’t read through your the whole thread but I started dosing about a 10 days ago as well and haven’t had any issues. I am dosing directly from a mix of 400ml to 6grams @ ~ 22 gallons of total water volume. So basically .22 of nitrates a day. I think the jump from 0 to 1 may have shocked things. It would be best to control your dosing with a dosing pump vs ATO.
 

BigJohnny

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I think the thread title says it all or mostly all of it... I am wondering if anyone has ever had their SPS start to Stn or Rtn after starting to dose spectracide.

Long story short... 10 days ago I started dozing 1ppm per day of NO3 using Spectracide in my top off water, and I have seen the exact opposite of what every post I read says... how dosing Spectracide does miracles (that might be a slight exaggeration). My SPS, or what is left of them, have taken a beating.

10 days ago when I started dozing I was a 0 nitrate (Red Sea pro). After two days of dozing 1ppm a day I was up to some where between 0 and 0.25 ppm and 0.018 Po4. After 4 days I was at 0.75 and after 10 days (stopped dosing 2 days ago) I am at around 1.5 ppm Nitrate and 0.034ppm phospate. The issue is however I have lost a number of frags already and the frags that I have left aren’t looking to good. I have had several frags RTN out of no where (there one day gone the next). Through out this time my alk has been running between 7.0 and 7.5 (was raising all from 7.0 to 7.5 over several days).

I am at a lose for what is going on. First signs of trouble where when my piece of red planet lost all it flesh over night. The night befor it’s polys we’re out and happy next morning bone white. Next my montis started showing they were unhappy. One of my green montis (not sure exactly what it is) started going Grey. At first it was speckeled and the lost most of its color on top and the polys retracted. Same with other montis... they kinda looked dusty if that makes sense. Today I lost a tennius piece... last night polys tonight bare.

I just did a battery of testing and everything looks normal.
Alk 7.5
Ca 380 (lower but not crazy)
Nitrate 1.5
Phosphate 0.034
Potassium 390
Ammonia 0

I tested ammonia since I pulled Half of my biopellets out of my reactor 4 days ago and I wanted to make sure that didnt cause a mini cycle. I know dosing nitrates and running a pellet reactor are counter intuitive, and that’s the reason I was going to slowly take it off line. I think it was what stripped my tank of the nitrates to begin with.

So that is where I am. Scratching my head watching my tank spiral down the proverbial drain.

So I guess there are two question...

the first is I am wondering if any one else has seen anything similar to this.... I wonder if I got a bad batch of Spectracide with something contaminating it.

Second, if this was you what would you do next. I think a couple water changes are in order or sure. But beyond that I am at a loss.

Added info: tank has been running for about a year and I might with radions.

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.
Unfortunately the fact that you pulled half of your biopellets while this was going on makes it impossible to determine what happened. I imagine it was a combination of both which caused a significant shift in available nutrients to the corals. Keep in mind, testable nitrate and phosphate are not the full picture, at all. There are other nutrients and processes that occur outside of test kits. A good example is how a tank full of hair algae might test low for nitrate and phosphate, but that doesn't mean they necessarily need more nutrients, probably the opposite.

That is why I think that trying to achieve specific no3/po4 levels, especially by artificial means is not a good idea. You don't really know where you are starting at in the first place. Every tank is different. Sure it works for some people, but it is risky and there are other safer ways to achieve the same results (if that's even what you really need).

The big mistake you made though was changing two things at once ; )

Good luck
 
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aarbutina

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@BigJohnny, while would tend to agree with you about changing too many things at once in most situations, in this case I pulled the pellets 6 days after starting the dosing with Spectracide. By this time most of my SPS were showing signs of sever stress. While it might not have help with recovering from what ever was stressing them the damage has already been done.
 
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aarbutina

aarbutina

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I haven’t read through your the whole thread but I started dosing about a 10 days ago as well and haven’t had any issues. I am dosing directly from a mix of 400ml to 6grams @ ~ 22 gallons of total water volume. So basically .22 of nitrates a day. I think the jump from 0 to 1 may have shocked things. It would be best to control your dosing with a dosing pump vs ATO.
If you read though many other posts on this topic the general consensus seems to be there is no harm in going from zero to your target level in one day, though some people choose to take it slow. In my tank I wasn’t jumping to a 1ppm in the tank water at once. I know my tank evaporates approximaelt 1 gallon per day. I was adding 0.6grams of kno4 to my daily top off water (prepped fresh daily) and that o.6 grams was added to my tank over the course of the day no different than a doser other thank the interval may be a little more ridged. I could that when I tested my nitrate level (done every two day) that if I put 2 ppm in I would only have .25 level (ie every other day the over all nitrate level increased by .25 ppm). This means something in the tank was actually consuming the other 1.75 ppm (which is the point right).

Any way, to catch you up where we stand now, I am not saying that dosing Spectracide is in and of itself bad. Many people are using it and having success. My question was simply are there people who have seen negative effects as a result and it a appears that there may be some who all seem to have a similar story, several days into dosing low levels of Spectracide something goes wrong (what that is is up for discussion.
 

BigJohnny

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@BigJohnny, while would tend to agree with you about changing too many things at once in most situations, in this case I pulled the pellets 6 days after starting the dosing with Spectracide. By this time most of my SPS were showing signs of sever stress. While it might not have help with recovering from what ever was stressing them the damage has already been done.
You didn't indicate in the original post that the problems occurred before you removed the pellets, so I was not aware. In that case then yes it was clearly the stump remover, but regardless, my point is the same: significant change in available nutrients to the corals. What happened is unclear since you really didn't dose much but there must have been a significant shift in the bacterial population, imo. It's possible there was a contaminant like you've suggested, but I think that's less likely to have been the cause. Try adding fish instead if you think you don't have enough nutrients.
 
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