Has anyone ever had their SPS die due to Dosing Spectracide for Nitrates?

[AquamanE]

I was always a ZERO NO3 and PHO4 believer but realized corals (SPS dominant) where Blah. Mainly in color. I feed heavy, and have a nice sized fuge. Had reservations about feeding a Stump remover to my tank, but read about the 97% purity KNO3 available. Started dosing at 0.5ppm/day for approx 2 weeks. NO3 went from zero to 2 ppm in that 2 week period. The cheato in my fuge lit by a Kessil light started to grow again instead of disintegrating. I dropped the dose to 0.25ppm/day and now its been 1.5 months. Corals have colored up dramatically. Frags have encrusted like never before. NO3 is still at 2ppm per salifert. Potassium per Triton test is with in normal levels.

Is it the impurities in the stump remover? Dont know, never will.

This is just my anecdotal input into this very interesting thread.

Cheers.

 

[mcarroll]

Yeah, 10ppb via Hanna ulr.

That's about 0.03 ppm....considering the error rate of the device, that could really be 0.02 ppm....low enough to be limiting, especially if the N-supply is significant. Double-especially if bacteria in the system are being given supplemental carbon.

Spectracide

CaCl2 ice melting compounds

There's certainly nothing wrong with using commercial additives, but that's a lot of FUD to spread on ideas that some folks have been using for decades. I'm on my second 50 pound bag of CaCl salt by this time!

I do agree though that there's no reason to put additives – commercial or DIY – into your tank without need or understanding coming into play first. And we're not the first folks to have thought this thought.

Just for one of those folk's well-written opinions, try this search: holmes farley impurities

The impurities aren't unknowable, thanks to all those articles over the years, but also even by the MSDS available for every chemical.

Sometimes impurities are just other nutrients.

Most of the time they inert or don't matter at all.

Seawater is far from pure to begin with, and the impurities aren't usually enough to add up to "significant".

As far as I can tell, the worst case scenario for Spectracide is that it uses so-called "animal grade" potassium nitrate (KNO3).

There are some trace contaminants in animal grade, but apparently (by the name) it's still considered safe for animals – which is our exact use-case.

But as far as I know, they may be using 100% purified KNO3 – no reason to assume the worst.

 

[mcarroll]

I was always a ZERO NO3 and PHO4 believer but realized corals (SPS dominant) where Blah. Mainly in color. I feed heavy, and have a nice sized fuge. Had reservations about feeding a Stump remover to my tank, but read about the 97% purity KNO3 available. Started dosing at 0.5ppm/day for approx 2 weeks. NO3 went from zero to 2 ppm in that 2 week period. The cheato in my fuge lit by a Kessil light started to grow again instead of disintegrating. I dropped the dose to 0.25ppm/day and now its been 1.5 months. Corals have colored up dramatically. Frags have encrusted like never before. NO3 is still at 2ppm per salifert. Potassium per Triton test is with in normal levels.

How were your PO4 levels before dosing and how are they now?

 

[Gmerek2]

I got burnt tips on them but I had dosed nitrates to 15ppm by accident

 

[mcarroll]

I got burnt tips on them but I had dosed nitrates to 15ppm by accident

Any PO4 present or was that zero/near-zero as well?

 

[Gmerek2]

Near 0

 

[mcarroll]

Near 0

Makes sense to me then.

I think there should be a rule vs dosing NO3 without PO4.

I think corals already have that rule, but they have poor language development so we don't know it.

 

[Gmerek2]

I find it easier and more balanced just to feed heavier. I got the colors I need by doing that. Adding the nitrates for me just created more work, more testing and something new to go wrong

 

[mcarroll]

I find it easier and more balanced just to feed heavier. I got the colors I need by doing that. Adding the nitrates for me just created more work, more testing and something new to go wrong

I'm very glad if it worked for you, but whether it will actually depends what you're trying to do/what the tank really needs.

Feeding more doesn't help with a N or P limit in the short term in most cases since you are adding all the nutrients and not just what's missing.

Thanks to that dynamic, you can actually magnify the problem by overfeeding.

Another big problem with feeding vs dosing is precision...not only are you adding all nutrients vs what's actually needed but you're adding a completely unknown amount that may or may not appear in your tests dispersed over then next 24-72 hours. A total mystery if/when it works. Cool if that works for you, but it might not be repeatable.

Dosing is a little more work, but only for a few days while you get your dosing rate dialed in. No downsides other than that and no more difficult than feeding the fish. And if you're someone who's having algae or nutrient issues, you probably would be well-served by some testing at least while your strategy comes together.

2¢

 

[aarbutina]

Side note: I am glad one of the mods fixed my typo in the title of this thread.

 

[2Wheelsonly]

I am by no means an expert but I have been keeping acros since 2006. Every single time I have seen RTN/STN outbreaks it had to do with my po4 levels (I no longer use GFO and will not buy it to prevent dumb mistakes on my behalf). You were running very lean, I believe the increase of no3 dropped your po4 even further and shocked your corals.

You mentioned you were running a bio reactor; I think it was a bad move to dose nitrates without first removing that. Not trying to be a downer here but it appears you opted for the quicker fix (no judging here, we are all human and I have done these same things). I bet if you went back in time and took the pellets offline and monitored for a month you would see no3 slowly rise and after a month IF you decided to dose no3 I bet it would have had much better results.

This should have been your route:

Pellets offline
Increase feeding
Monitor nutrients daily for 1 month
Dose accordingly

 

[fishboy11]

I’ve been keeping up with this thread and wanted to chime in with my very limited experience and knowledge. I began dosing KNO3 last year after I had totally wiped my tank using Vibrant. At this time I began testing nitrates using Red Sea; however, I was using Red Sea for testing PO4, which is very difficult to read in the low range. I lost every acro to STN that I had. I’m not sure the cause.

I am now dosing reagent grade Sodium Nitrate with good results so far on frags. I’m getting encrusting and good polyp extension. However, colors could be better. I’m running 5 ppm nitrates. Since I’ve began dosing; however, PO4 has dropped, and I am getting readings of around 5-8 ppb on my Hanna ULR. To me, this is too low. How are people countering the drop in phosphates seen when dosing nitrate?

 

[Ryanbrs]

The same could be said for most everything we put in our tanks. How do you know anything you put in your tank is as pure as the manufacturer suggests.

I am openly biased on this but I think this is a valid statement, no one really knows anything for sure. More or less you just have to select a source that you think has your best interest at heart. In this case, wants to help you be successful with your tank. Most of the manufacturers who are looking for a stable future where you would buy from them again or recommend them will likely make decisions to that goal. In the end there is just a lot of trust here that they are going to deliver on the promises and that they have done some due diligence on selecting a material appropriate for the intended use. However, they will be reviewed by the community and the stores that sell it to that purpose so there is a legit level of accountability. For that reason, I am personally using Brightwells Neonitro on the 160. If you offered me $5,000 to start dosing stump remover I'd say not in a million years.

When you are using something outside of it's intended use all that becomes a total gamble. No one has your best interest at heart and zero accountability to your goals. May work well, may not be so toxic that a single dose harms anything but what are the effects of a years worth of dosing? At a minimum, I think ICP testing would give you a window into that but sending in multiple $50 test kits kind of defeats the purpose.

The thing about these chemicals is most of them are some form of mined material and the manufactures pay for whatever purification steps are required for the application. To make sure the product is affordable and competitive none of them will go a single step past that. Sometimes the standard purification steps are adequate for a variety of applications, however, when the raw material is processed and packaged it is also done on a line designed for its intended use. If you were to visit a line designed for processing and packaging anything designed to be put on the ground vs a USP or ACS production/packaging line there would be no question as to which one you would want to use.

For what it is worth I think it is increasingly likely on this specific chemical we may perform ICP-MS testing and share it with the community. Partially because I just think it is interesting and would be fun to share with the community. If it ends up being the same or close we certainly wouldn't bother selling it, there is near zero value there for reefers if this readily available product is adequate. I imagine it won't be the same as higher grades and it will at least just become what I would call an informed gamble. Right now it is kind of a blind leap.

For what it is worth if you click on my sig below there is a pic of a bunch of samples we sent in for ICP-MS today. Can't say exactly what this is but I can't wait to share the results

 

[Ryanbrs]

Yeah and what erked me the most was Ryan said "the tank never looks better" in that video. Then why on earth are you changing anything?! If I asked him I'm sure he'd say it's because it's the brs160 and they are just testing things and trying to help people learn though. I get it. People shouldn't use it as a model for that reason though. They also switched from full zeo to triton in like a day which is obviously not advisable.....

Sometimes it is hard to pack every last bit of information into these videos and some things get overlooked. The reason we are going to start "attempting to dose" nitrate is threefold.

1) It seemed like we were in a never-ending battle of having to add more and more food and some corals would show signs if we didn't scale food addition with growth. I just kind of hit my limit of what I thought was a reasonable input of food. So this is just an alternative to that.

2) I have always been somewhat uncomfortable with the fact that the tank has always been zero detectible nitrate and we are using some pretty costly tools to measure it. I think I would like to maintain something like .25 or something detectable and near NSW levels but I don't think that's a reasonable goal and it certainly would be even harder for the average reefer to do with home test kits. So we selected 1-2ppm as a goal and figured we would share the results.

3) In the end the 160 is an incredibly expensive test tank We try new things and throw ourselves up as guinea pigs so reefers can see at least one data point and hear our experience before testing on their own tanks. It's scary for me personally but I can only hope valuable.

I have to say the more and more I think about this I am fearful it is going to become very "mad scientist" trying to find the balance between nitrate, phosphate and potentially organic carbon dosing. I am most concerned about the organic carbon, I can only imagine that this has the potential to be rapidly depleted in a world where you are dosing both nitrate and phosphate. Right now there isn't a legit way to test for it either. If I were betting on something I would say most reefers will find dumping in food or limiting export a bit easier and potentially less risky.

 

[rosshamsandwich]

yes

 

[Peng]

This is probably extreme but whenever I see a post asking about "corals losing color + turning pale + RTN/STN + still running biopellet/phos&carbon reactor/carbon dosing" I really just wanna say: "turn that -------- reactor off!"

If you have low nutrients and you are still running a pellet reactor doing carbon dosing, you really really need to pull that thing offline. That reactor (something you probably don't even need) is a problem solver not a tank component. You only need to run a pellet reactor or any kind of carbon dosing when you have a high nutrient problem like 15+ NO3 or such. This reactor already cost your money and now it's gonna cost the lives of your corals and perhaps later dino would come in and play with your corals. When you have STN/RTN that can be caused by bacteria. All that carbon source from your pellets cannot be better for them.

 

[thejuice24]

WOW Ready for this one.... About three weeks ago of being Pro Spectracide dosing..... now regretting....

Starting about a week ago last Tuesday night, started noticing my tank starting to head south. Some STN on one acro. one Monti Cap and most of my zoas were not happy (closed and shrunk\shriveled). I have had most of these corals without incident well over a year. First off I thought it may have been a pest (flatworms to be exact). I even posted asking in the hitch hiker thread, which turned out to be a false alarm, after second opinions and going through LionFishs website.

But then this thread clicked in my head late Friday night. So I immediately stopped my dosing. Saturday morning, I checked all major elements (CAL, ALK, and Mag) all were in check normal parameters 440, 8.5 and 1350. Phosphate was at .03 with Hanna Checker and Nitrates where @ 2 PPM with a Salifert test kit. Sunday things started getting worst all three of my anemones looked flat and not pretty.

At this point I was #$%^% scared, so I took immediate action and completed a 50% water change on Sunday night and a 30% water change last night. Today things are looking good again outside of the two STN'ed corals.

 

[aarbutina]

WOW Ready for this one.... About three weeks ago of being Pro Spectracide dosing..... now regretting....

Starting about a week ago last Tuesday night, started noticing my tank starting to head south. Some STN on one acro. one Monti Cap and most of my zoas were not happy (closed and shrunk\shriveled). I have had most of these corals without incident well over a year. First off I thought it may have been a pest (flatworms to be exact). I even posted asking in the hitch hiker thread, which turned out to be a false alarm, after second opinions and going through LionFishs website.

But then this thread clicked in my head late Friday night. So I immediately stopped my dosing. Saturday morning, I checked all major elements (CAL, ALK, and Mag) all were in check normal parameters 440, 8.5 and 1350. Phosphate was at .03 with Hanna Checker and Nitrates where @ 2 PPM with a Salifert test kit. Sunday things started getting worst all three of my anemones looked flat and not pretty.

At this point I was #$%^% scared, so I took immediate action and completed a 50% water change on Sunday night and a 30% water change last night. Today things are looking good again outside of the two STN'ed corals.

Sorry to hear about your troubles. However I am glad to see this thread has started so much good discussion.

Just curious. How much were you dosing per day? And did you dose immediately up to 2ppm or did you gradually bring the nitrate up to this level?

 

[thejuice24]

Sorry to hear about your troubles. However I am glad to see this thread has started so much good discussion.

Just curious. How much were you dosing per day? And did you dose immediately up to 2ppm or did you gradually bring the nitrate up to this level?

Thank you. It is what it is, unfortunately.

So I started dosing .11 Nitrates a day (1ml) for the first 5 days or so. Nitrates where still undetectable, bumped it 2 ml .22 a day. Did that this for about a week and was starting to register Nitrates and went up another ml for 3ml. I would say I dosed for a solid 6 weeks at least.

While not much in the grand scheme of thing, I’m only running 2- 20G longs right now, 1 as a display and 1 as DYI sump with a estimated water volume of 22 gallons. That’s based on what I use to make any corrects for Calcium or Alkalinity, which I haven’t had to do in quite a while since dowsing 2 part.

 

[jda]

Peng is all over this. Having lower N and P is not an issue if it is happening naturally and not with any media or chemicals. Organic carbon, GFO, etc. and near-zero can lead to death. Having low N and P just with anoxic bacteria, water changes, fuges and good P swapping/binding with aragonite is no issue and quite actually good - these types of natural solutions usually leave enough in the water to drive the equilibrium and you never bottom out. I have never heard of any actual confirmed deaths by limiting of growth with natural N and P methods - if somebody says that they like the richer, deeper colors from higher levels rather than the brighter and higher constrast, then fine, to each their own, but death should not be happening.