Has the hobby gotten too expensive and how does it compare to the past?

[Falcon53]

Interesting to me, as I’m planning to set up my first tank this winter.

I’d also like to hear how much people typically spend on established tanks, on a regular basis. Idk if $/gal makes sense, but of course to be useful, price info like that has to somehow be connected to tank size, the way this assumed a constant tank size.

I’m planning to build a tank that’s around 50 gallons, with soft coral :not designer, but sustainably grown, not wild harvested), anemones, and a clean-up crew. I want it to be as much of a closed system as possible. I’ve been reading about tumbler currents and jellyfish being kept with other animals, so I plan to set up that kind of current (not laminar flow/ Kreisel current) with very low flow. Eventually, I’d love to add jellies, but I assume it will be a couple years until I have everything set up and stabilized. For now, the idea of jellies is just a guide to how to proceed with the build—water flow, no corners, etc. I don’t have a big budget, which might mean even slower progress.

I have a 60 gallon SPS/LPS tank, so your cost should be lower. Here is what I spend:

Annually change 4 T5 bulbs = $80 (ATI)
Annual salt costs =$130 (10 gallons changed weekly, I use Instant Ocean)
Annual two-part costs =$60 (ESV)
Annual GFO = $40 (BRS)
Annual carbon = $20 (BRS)
Annual electricity =$240
Annual food = $20
Annual testing = $40
Bleach, Vinegar, other miscellaneous, annually = $30

Total annual expenses = $660

Everything here except electricity is a very accurate cost accounting, while electricity is more of a guess.

This is for ongoing operating costs only, obviously. If you are going to constantly change equipment and kill livestock, the hobby will become much more expensive. Try to avoid that...it's not necessary

One last thing, but costs do not seem to scale in a linear fashion, i.e. you can't multiply these costs by 2 for a 120 gallon tank. Most of these costs will scale linearly, but some might have economies of scale. It will also depend a lot on what you stock. For your softy tank, you don't need powerful lighting at all or as much two-part, as an example. Or if you have space for a refugium (I wish), you might not need GFO, but you will need another light.

If I bought this all at an LFS, they might be lucky to have an annual gross profit off of me of $97.50 - that assumes 25% gross margin on retail purchases of $390 (all of the above minus electricity and miscellaneous).

Of course gross profit is before all of their overhead, like rent, wages, electricity, taxes, etc.

Does anyone wonder why these LFS are going out of business and why their livestock costs are so high? Give them a break!

 

[Shooter6]

Well my first tank ever was an under gravel filter, heater and a strip light, so yeah, it's gotten more expensive.

Same here

 

[OriginalUserName]

This is kinda like asking if phone service has become more expensive. Well, sorta, your new Iphone costs $1k, where as a new rotary phone would have been far cheaper.

The hobby is continually pushing for greater control and less effort, that translates into cost. When I got back into reefing (from just fish) I bought a brand new biocube HQI. Adding a heater, extra powerhead etc. and I was at well under 1k with a stand on a system that could support most anything.

Of course, though I think folks might be surprised just how many are completely gone. My point was that even large businesses disappear over decades. I wonder what the median survival is of a small business. My favored LFS just closed after over 30 years, but I’d think that an outlier.

6) 7 out of 10 new employer firms survive at least 2 years, half at least 5 years, a third at least 10 years and a quarter stay in business 15 years or more

According to Forbes. IMO, for hobby type businesses that must be far lower. Nobody wants to start a business renting porta potties, but many that shouldn't be in business want to open up a fish store.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonn...atistics-about-small-businesses/#7423cb345ec8

 

[ca1ore]

7 out of 10 new employer firms survive at least 2 years, half at least 5 years, a third at least 10 years and a quarter stay in business 15 years or more.

Yes, that sounds about right. So if one goes back and looks at a magazine from 1988, that most of the vendors are gone doesn't mean worse than median management - just an inability for most businesses to adapt to new operating models.

 

[ca1ore]

Keep in mind that some costs scale with volume, others do not. Salt is a variable cost, a controller like Apex is a fixed cost. Electricity is somewhere in between (you need less heat per gallon in a bigger system than in a smaller one).

 

[ca1ore]

duplicate

 

[Shooter6]

Ill say some things are far cheaper such as the jeabo/jacod return pumps. Compared to the old mag drive with the same output id say price is better. aquariumand stand cost is down too

 

[looneywun]

id say everything is more expenisive now then in the past

 

[WannaBSpaghetti]

From what I understand, 10 years ago you were considered a talented reefer if you were able to keep xenia alive - now you have people cursing its name and tearing it off of rocks.

Again, I'm a novice, but it seems to me that part of the reason everything is getting a bit more expensive is because the technology (and research behind it) has improved. I would call upon more seasoned reefers to weigh in here: How much do you think you would have to spend today to achieve the same results as you did 10-15 years ago? Seems to me that you could put together a real budget setup and achieve what would have been considered substantial success a decade ago - though it might not be too impressive by today's standards.

 

[OriginalUserName]

Just wanted to add that this same thing applies to any hobby. I haven't been brewing that long, but from what I can tell, 15 years ago an advanced setup looks more like an entry level kit does now. I could have stuck with a big pot on the stove, a bag of grain, and some bottles and a funnel. It was my choice to purchase an all in one brewing machine and kegging system.

 

[that Reef Guy]

Absolutely, especially when a goni frag is $1200.

Some of these vendors are just
sickening with prices, vote with your wallets folks.

As consumers we can make a difference and push prices down.

Expensive Corals do NOT keep people from getting into the Hobby.

I see Corals $10 or less ALL the Time.

Many are Nicer than the Expensive Ones.

I want a Ferrari and a Canaletto Painting but you do not see me complaining.

It is Supply and Demand.

If something is Rare or Beautiful it tends to be desirable.

The Nice Thing About Coral is it Grows.

You Can't Frag a Car or a Painting.

Red Hornets wer $300 a Polyp when they Came Out.

Now they are $10 or less.

Just be Patient and Wait.

But another Coral that is more affordable.

That 1,200 will drop in price as time goes on.

Equipment tends not to do that.

Vendors do this for a Living.

I Wish People would look at the Big Picture on all Things Reefing Rather than just the Dollar Signs.

Maybe we should Tell Doctors they should make Minimum Wage?

Guess What there would be no Doctors because they would all Quit.

Same Thing with Vendors.

If they are not making money they will quit.

That would be a Huge Disservice to the Hobby.

Nobody is Forcing you to Spend $1,200 on a Coral.

Corals is that Price Range are like 1 Millionth of 1 Percent.

That is Irrellevant.

 

[Falcon53]

Expensive Corals do NOT keep people from getting into the Hobby.

I see Corals $10 or less ALL the Time.

Many are Nicer than the Expensive Ones.

I want a Ferrari and a Canaletto Painting but you do not see me complaining.

It is Supply and Demand.

If something is Rare or Beautiful it tends to be desirable.

The Nice Thing About Coral is it Grows.

You Can't Frag a Car or a Painting.

Red Hornets wer $300 a Polyp when they Came Out.

Now they are $10 or less.

Just be Patient and Wait.

But another Coral that is more affordable.

That 1,200 will drop in price as time goes on.

Equipment tends not to do that.

Vendors do this for a Living.

I Wish People would look at the Big Picture on all Things Reefing Rather than just the Dollar Signs.

Maybe we should Tell Doctors they should make Minimum Wage?

Guess What there would be no Doctors because they would all Quit.

Same Thing with Vendors.

If they are not making money they will quit.

That would be a Huge Disservice to the Hobby.

Nobody is Forcing you to Spend $1,200 on a Coral.

Corals is that Price Range are like 1 Millionth of 1 Percent.

That is Irrellevant.

Waiting is too much to ask in a country full of people that think they are entitled to everything. Move to Haiti and then tell me what hobbies you can afford. The greed and entitlement - not of the vendors, but of some of the hobbyists is what is truly distasteful.

 

[WannaBSpaghetti]

Waiting is too much to ask in a country full of people that think they are entitled to everything. Move to Haiti and then tell me what hobbies you can afford. The greed and entitlement - not of the vendors, but of some of the hobbyists is what is truly distasteful.

That escalated quickly.

 

[Falcon53]

That escalated quickly.

Not really. My first comment in this thread was on 03/21/18. Since then I've seen many people complain about prices and markups that have literally zero knowledge to base their statements off of. It's just complaining because they feel entitled to less expensive products.

It's America...if you think someone is making excess profits you can easily start a business and take some of those profits for yourself. Or you can whine on the internet all day and do nothing - instead of being thankful you are so rich relative to most of the people in the world that you have enough disposable income to have a hobby.

 

[that Reef Guy]

Not really. My first comment in this thread was on 03/21/18. Since then I've seen many people complain about prices and markups that have literally zero knowledge to base their statements off of. It's just complaining because they feel entitled to less expensive products.

It's America...if you think someone is making excess profits you can easily start a business and take some of those profits for yourself. Or you can whine on the internet all day and do nothing - instead of being thankful you are so rich relative to most of the people in the world that you have enough disposable income to have a hobby.

I agree.

Quit Complaining and Enjoy life

 

[clsanchez77]

Id put my expense to maintain my system 300 gallons total at around 100-150 per month. Thats water changes additives & foods. Electricity i have not figured out yet and livestock is more. I have a mixed reef sps lps and soft corals.

With LED lighting and DC pumps, electricity costs are not what it used to be, but at a premium you have to pay for up front

 

[dreamsr]

Waiting is too much to ask in a country full of people that think they are entitled to everything. Move to Haiti and then tell me what hobbies you can afford. The greed and entitlement - not of the vendors, but of some of the hobbyists is what is truly distasteful.

You remind me of a distinction I recently noticed about my mom and me in a lot of things, including gardening. I enjoy the digging, and when I pull out weeds I speak softly to the other plants, encouraging them to grow now that their bed is made just right for them. I like planning the garden, trimming things just right.... Mom likes to look out and see pretty flowers. She will do the planting and weeding, but only because she has to in order to get the end result. You’re saying that her type is more common. That may be true, but I think there are also a lot like me, who enjoy the contact and like watching things grow and develop.

 

[HaloPhenom27]

I would like to think the underlying idea of this exercise would be to see how affordable this hobby is for people.

I think a more fun and perhaps more accurate exercise would be to poll reefers as to what their yearly incomes are, and maybe what they do for a living? What is affordable to one person may be outside the realm of affordability to another. Is it affordable to the average person, or simply to people at the higher income levels?

 

[psychobilly07]

It definitely has become a much more expensive hobby. I think part of it is so many more people are in the hobby for profit than in previous years. Aquashella is going on in Chicago right now and its $27 just to walk in the door. Ten years ago Id walk into a swap and spend $50 and go home with 6-7 nice frags nowadays Id be lucky to find 2 for $50. Still an awesome hobby just alot more expensive

 

[HaloPhenom27]

Nowadays you can spend $50 dollars plus tax on a tester that tests one parameter (Hannah Phosphate Checker) and have it fail to turn on after it's 3rd use.

Nowadays you can buy a $120 top off and have it fail in exactly 1 1/2 months.

Nowadays you can buy $515 dollar light's (controller and stand added) and have it intermittently not work for you right out of the box.

And I will just say this...this all happened to me in my first 6 months of getting into the hobby. To say I am frustrated is an understatement.

I did a ton of research and all 3 of those items were made by companies that the vast majority of the reefing community swears by. All of them touted as being "higher quality" equipment or "high end gear"...or "Quality stuff" from "High End" companies who "spend a ton of money on R&D" to make our lives easier. None of those three "high end" products made my life the least bit easier.