Help ID. Algae?? Dino??

[JOKER]

Ok so I am fighting this, and not sure what it is. Any help would be appreciated. PO4 was .0009 , and NO3 was 2 wit triton test. Calcium 420, alk 8-8.5 mag 1320. SPS dominant 140 shallow tank running 3 250 watt radium, 2 Blue+ ati, and 2 actinic t5. I have cut lighting recently running 1 MH, and 2 blue +.

 

[JOKER]

Urchin will actually eat it!

 

[mcarroll]

Pics of it in the tank? By chance is this a fairly new tank started with dead rock and where cabon dosing or other aggressive nutrient export methods (e.g. GFO) were used?

What magnification are those pics? At least as pictured it doesn't look a lot like dino's, but maybe it's a really low mag?

Check out the first post on the dino sticky thread in this forum. There's a lot of guidance on the first post (I keep it pretty up to date with the progress of the thread), so see if you think it's dino's after that.

There are signs and leading indicators to look for (such as your wicked-low PO4 level) but also a couple of tests you can do on a sample and scope photos from lots of other folks you can compare with. Feel free to post some questions or whatever ( or at least a link to your thread) or PM as needed.

 

[JOKER]

I will have to check on magnification. It is a new kids scope. For filtration I have 3 marine pure blocks in sump, an RO elite 220 skimmer, around 100# pukani, and a remote deep sand bed in sump with some live rock in it. I was doing 2 gallon a day automatic water changes until I noticed a stringy algae or something on sand bed. I cleaned it out several times only to come right back. I then shut off AWC, and started dosing PO4 with Neophos. The stuff on sand went away, and then this showed up.

 

[JOKER]

I wanted to keep this tank as simple as I could.

 

[JOKER]

Here is in tank photo.

 

[mcarroll]

3 marine pure blocks

remote deep sand bed

I'd remove all that - way too much NO3 export. Especially if it's a new tank.

around 100# pukani

Assuming that was dead rock?

Your tank sounds like a prime target for dino's as it stands.

If you can't do better with that scope, then just try one of the other tests to assure it's at lease some kind of dino. If it is, then you're at least off on the right foot with the N and P dosing.

Once you get levels up to 5-10 ppm NO3 and ≥0.10 ppm PO4 your base for recovery is in place.

Manually remove as much of the bloom as well as detritus from the system as you can – that will help.

Either the algae it blurry...I'm blurry...or the photo is out of focus.

Is it just an artifact of the photograph or is that mass mostly green? Dino's should not look green, assuming I'm looking at the right thing.

 

[Reef Jeff]

I agree with the rest that the magnification isn't enough to tell. You need at least 900x to see diatoms and more than that, like 1500x to tell if they are dinos or cyano. Regardless, the fix is the same:

• Siphon out what you can.
• Cut back on feeding and additives that add organics
• Run high quality granulated activated carbon
• Run skimmer wet, 24/7. Watch salinity and keep it stable
• Get PO4 up (too low right now). Try for .05 to .08 ppm.
• Keep NO3 where it is 1-2 ppm. Higher isn't needed and just knocks N and P out of balance
• Maintain N and P at those levels the best you can.
• Cut lighting period back a bit for now like you have done.
• Regular water changes with good RO/DI water.

If its diatoms they will burn out on their own assuming RO/DI water is used for water changes and topoff.
If its cyano it will abate with the increase in PO4 and keeping N and P nutrients balanced better.
If it's dinos, the balance in N and P and lower organics will help shorten life cycle...keep siphoning.

Here is a common cymbella diatom that causes brown covering on sandbed: 1000X

 

[Reef Jeff]

One other thing...some tests you can do to see what they are:

1. Move sand around to cover the brown stuff. Diatoms will cover over easy but will quickly move back to the top in less than a day. Cyano and dinos just break loose and float up into the water column
2. Put a smaple of the brown stuff in a vial. Add peroxide. Diatoms do nothing in peroxide...they stay brown. Cyano and Dinos die and turn white.

It looks to me like you have cyano or dinos. My bet is on dinos.

 

[JOKER]

The tank just turned a year old Christmas day. Last time I had a bloom peroxide would kill it. I took a small rock out, and soaked in water and peroxide. Ok thanks I will try tests.

 

[JOKER]

The only food I feed is LRS reef frenzy 1 time a day. I only have 6 fish in the tank right now. I have a few more in QT and more ordered that we are waiting for better weather before shipping. I also run carbon 24/7. Seachem matrix I believe.

 

[JOKER]

One other thing...some tests you can do to see what they are:

1. Move sand around to cover the brown stuff. Diatoms will cover over easy but will quickly move back to the top in less than a day. Cyano and dinos just break loose and float up into the water column
2. Put a smaple of the brown stuff in a vial. Add peroxide. Diatoms do nothing in peroxide...they stay brown. Cyano and Dinos die and turn white.

It looks to me like you have cyano or dinos. My bet is on dinos.

Well peroxide done nothing.. So im guessing I have diatoms a year in. Why

 

[mcarroll]

Here is in tank photo.

Can you post a full tank shot that also shows the scene in this pic? I'm having a hard time seeing this as diatoms (even if it is). LOL

Color would suggest #chrysophytes (which are diatom-like in some ways), but the photo still doesn't have enough detail to say for sure.

Diatoms should also not look green....is that color in the photo real?

If you can, I'd like to also see results of a "shake test" for confirmation. (lots of details for testing on the dino sticky thread...even for cyano too)

Put a sample in a vial, shake it up to homogenize it....leave it alone (ideally under a light) and see if it regroups in a mass or if it stays shaken up. Dino's are the only common thing that will regroup. Cyano or diatoms will not.

 

[Reef Jeff]

Try what mcarroll said first as a double check. Im a little surprised the peroxide did nothing as I was thinking Dino's. So if they are diatoms that suggests some source of silica like silicic acid or other soluable silicate was introduced either in the top off water or water changes, water added from a livestock purchase, or some new rock or sand added before the outbreak. A silica test might help confirm, but try what mcarroll suggested first before buying a test kit and such.

 

[JOKER]

I have a few more photos. I see a hint of cyano on the other in one spot. I added some pukani pieces that had been cured for like a year. They were from the original batch.

 

[Reef Jeff]

Good pictures. The air bubbles in the masses indicate dinoflagellates. The small patch of red is typical of cyanobacteria. I'm confident you have your answer now. You mentioned the addition of cured pukani pieces. In my experience the addition of rock can trigger these events under the right conditions. Hard to know if that rock seeded the outbreak or introduced factors that altered the nutrient/bacterial status of the tank.

Reducing organics, and creating inorganic nutrient balance is the cure in my experience. There are a lot of other factors that can add to or limit success with this plan like old lights where spectrum has gone out of whack, etc, but I have always been able to get this type of situation under control using this approach without chemical treatments:

• Siphon out all that you can. Best to siphon and replace with new saltwater made from RO/DI, but another option is to siphon into a 100 micron or smaller filter bag into the sump. I prefer full siphon out because a percentage of the dinos and cyano will pass through the micron filter into the water column and continue to grow.
• Cut back on feeding and stop all additives that add organics
• Run high quality granulated activated carbon and change twice monthly till this is under control, then monthly afterwards
• Run skimmer wet, 24/7. Watch salinity and keep it stable. If you don't have a skimmer, get it now.
• Get PO4 up. Now that we know it is cyano and dinos shoot for .08 to .12 ppm confirmed with a high quality phosphate kit like Hanna checker or Red Sea pro. Once under control you can drop it a bit lower if you like, but not too low.
• Keep NO3 between 1-2 ppm. Higher is okay, but isn't needed to do the job.
• Maintain N and P at those levels the best you can. Dose if necessary.
• Cut lighting period back a bit for now like you have done.
• Regular water changes with good RO/DI water.

Don't panic though...you will get it under control. Your on the right track.

 

[JOKER]

Thanks. All the research I did, and I still was afraid dinos. I am getting ready to siphon now, and do water change. I have hanna, and salifert test kits for PO4. Every time I test I get 0 so I plan to up my dosage. How many ML neophos would you recommend for 170 water volume? I really appreciate the replies..

 

[mcarroll]

Thanks. All the research I did, and I still was afraid dinos. I am getting ready to siphon now, and do water change. I have hanna, and salifert test kits for PO4. Every time I test I get 0 so I plan to up my dosage. How many ML neophos would you recommend for 170 water volume? I really appreciate the replies..

Just follow directions on the bottle and target the level of PO4 you want: ≥0.10 ppm

(If you can post the directions we can help crunch the numbers.)

 

[JOKER]

This is from brightwell sight.
Note: If at any time, dosing with NEOPHOS results in a prolonged increase of phosphate concentration without gradual decrease as nitrate is taken up, system is likely carbon-limited (remedied by the application of REEF BIOFUEL or KATALYST to the system). Refer to Steps 3 and 4, or to our website (NEOPHOS "Technical" page). 1 ml NEOPHOS will increase the phosphate concentration in 1 US-gallon (~3.8 L) by ~1.2 ppm; 1 drop from plastic bulb pipette (enclosed within bottle) will increase the concentration in the same volume of water by ~0.06 ppm.

I have dosed as much as 10ml a day with no change. I have it figured at around 50ML a day, but that seems a lot for 140 gallon.

 

[mcarroll]

1 ml NEOPHOS will increase the phosphate concentration in 1 US-gallon (~3.8 L) by ~1.2 ppm

Am I wrong or does that mean 14 mL would give you a dose up to about 0.12 ppm? That's a good minimum then, and you have plenty of room to dose more if you still have zeros the next day. (Check out some folks experience on the main dino thread who've done this....it might actually be useful to know some of the things you might expect to happen....for example how much PO4 some have had to dose. It seems crazy every time....but not once you read and understand what you're doing with the PO4.

So it's not "a lot" until you see some residual PO4 show up on your test....no kidding. Dose, and dose more, until you achieve ≥ 0.10 ppm PO4.