Help identify issue with Clownfish in QT

[blackstallion]

Moved my 3 Clowns from medicated QT 3 weeks ago into a sterile tank. In the medicated tank, I had treated with CP at 2.5ppm verified with Hanna checker, metro and API GC.

For the 3 weeks they've been in the sterile observation tank, they've occasionally had what looked like spots on them but wasn't sure, so kept observing. I have noticed them yawning and occasionally going to surface for air so I was given advice that it may be Prazi resistant gill Flukes.

However, today I observed the below in the pictures. After doing a 5 minute FW dip, the spots were still present. Does this look like the beginning of Brook?

I am setting up another QT so I can treat and move and medicate again if necessary.

Medicine I have on hand is Ruby Reef Rally Pro, Metro, API GC, PraziPro, Fenbendazole, Rid Ich and antibiotics. Unfortunately I don't have 37% Formalin on hand, although I've been told this would be the preferred treatment.

Would a 90 minute bath in RRR pro followed by 2 weeks of Metro in a sterile tank help if this is Brook? Or should I do the RRR pro bath and then just repeat treatment with Copper and Metro to hit all my bases for parasites?

Any other thoughts on what this may be and treatment options are welcome.

 

[itsken37]

Ich or velvet

 

[Jay Hemdal]

That isn’t velvet, and unlikely to be ich. If it is Brooklynella, it is in the early stages.
How long were the fish held in full copper?
Are the fish breathing normally, feeding well and keeping their fins erect?
Take a look at an article I posted in the article section on mucus .
Jay

 

[blackstallion]

That isn’t velvet, and unlikely to be ich. If it is Brooklynella, it is in the early stages.
How long were the fish held in full copper?
Are the fish breathing normally, feeding well and keeping their fins erect?
Take a look at an article I posted in the article section on mucus .
Jay

@Jay Hemdal if you're willing to hang in with me, I'd like to give some background on what I've done so you have all the available info.

14 days at or above 2.0ppm, and 12 at or near 2.5ppm, verified with a Hanna Checker.

Day 0 - Copper Power 1.0
Day 1 - Copper Power 1.33
Day 2 - Copper Power 1.66
Day 3 - Copper Power 2.0
Day 4 - Metro - Copper Power 2.3
Day 5 - Copper Power 2.5
Day 6 - API GC (Or Pure Metro and parizi)
Day 8 - Metro
Day 10 - Metro
Day 12 - API GC (Or Pure Metro and parizi)
Day 16 – Metro
Day 17- Move to QT Tank 2 for observation

On January 4'th I transfered them to the current observational sterile tank (so it's been about 3.5 weeks now in this current tank).

I was seeing white stringy feces off and on (and still am) but never treated with food soaked medicine. Will still need to potentially do this.

I started seeing all the Clowns Yawn (and the Orange one will go to the surface occasionally for a gulp of air) around the 2nd week in this sterile tank, so I was given advice that I may be dealing with Prazi resistant Flukes. Since I used API GC in the hospital tank 3 weeks ago, I treated with PraziPro in this sterile tank. I performed a couple FW dips and never saw any flukes come off. Mind you, I never performed a WC after the PraziPro treatment, so is it possible they're not happy with water quality?

I was seeing a bacterial bloom after the Prazi so I put in a diatom filter (which is still in the tank) to clear the bloom, which it has so O2 levels in the tank (along with gas exchange) should not be an issue.

The Orange Clown's appetitte seems to be somewhate supressed, but the other 2 are eating normally for now as far as I can tell.

Not seeing them scratch or flash.

Please let me know what you see in the Videos.

Another thing I'm noticing is discoloration in the white sections (can be seen in the pictures).

My current plan of attack had been to perform a 90 minute RRR Pro bath and then transfer into another sterile tank for some form of treatment ie. Metro only, Metro + copper, etc.

Looking for feedback on what my next step should be with this available info, Thanks!

 

[blackstallion]

That isn’t velvet, and unlikely to be ich. If it is Brooklynella, it is in the early stages.
How long were the fish held in full copper?
Are the fish breathing normally, feeding well and keeping their fins erect?
Take a look at an article I posted in the article section on mucus .
Jay

Edit to the above post regarding the Orange Clowns appetitte being supressed. He wasn't really to interested in food this morning, but this afternoon when I fed he was going after food pretty aggressivly and eating, so don't know if I'd quite say he's not eating.

 

[blackstallion]

That isn’t velvet, and unlikely to be ich. If it is Brooklynella, it is in the early stages.
How long were the fish held in full copper?
Are the fish breathing normally, feeding well and keeping their fins erect?
Take a look at an article I posted in the article section on mucus .
Jay

I read the article on mucous coat and I can see there are a couple things that are affecting my fish.

First of all, the white stringy feces I have observed off and on points to some sort of internal irritation. I started feeding pellets soaked in Fenbendazole to try and help.

Secondly, the "spots", which may actually just be the mucous coat. Although question is what's causing it? I tested for Ammonia in the water and its 0ppm.

As stated, symptoms are the spots, yawning and going to the surface for air. No scratching or flashing. No clamped fins. Feeding still seems fairly normal.

Of the 3 fish, the Orange Clown is the most affected. The other 2 don't go to the surface for air, although they will yawn occasionally as well.

I did notice that after I performed the FW dip on the orange guy yesterday, he is more active today.

I am currently mixing up a batch of fresh SW and will get my sterile QT up. That way, if need be, I can pull them out of the current tank, bath in RRR, transfer into the sterile tank and figure out path forward, whether it be observation, partial or full treatment again.

 

[blackstallion]

A common thread I've seen is the days after a FW dip, the "spots" go away to the naked eye and are only minimally visible with a camera and flash (as you can see in the pictures).

I'm starting to think the spots is not "skin" coming off, but the mucous coat becoming agitated for some reason. Of course, that can be due to a number of ailments, but, the common thread is AFTER a FW dip, the mucous coat improves.

What can cause the mucous coat to improve days AFTER a FW dip?

 

[blackstallion]

It's been 1 week since I performed ONLY the FW dip and have not seen the "spots" nor mucous coat agitation come back.

I'm torn now on how to proceed. Should I perform a Formalin bath as a precautionary measure? Or would the better approach be to continue observing and IF the spots and agitation come back perform the bath and transfer to sterile tank?

How rough is the formalin bath on the fish? Would it be worth whatever stress would be induced in order to lower the chances of becoming reinfested with parasites again?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

It's been 1 week since I performed ONLY the FW dip and have not seen the "spots" nor mucous coat agitation come back.

I'm torn now on how to proceed. Should I perform a Formalin bath as a precautionary measure? Or would the better approach be to continue observing and IF the spots and agitation come back perform the bath and transfer to sterile tank?

How rough is the formalin bath on the fish? Would it be worth whatever stress would be induced in order to lower the chances of becoming reinfested with parasites again?

Sorry! I am not sure why I dropped off your thread. Always feel free to bump me or send me a PM if I go AWOL...too many threads, not enough time!
Formalin baths will remove flukes pretty effectively, but less useful for protozoans and even less for bacterial issues. They can be pretty stressful, but the same thing as with FW dips: if a fish dies after this procedure, and it was done correctly, the fish was destined to die soon if SOME treatment wasn’t enacted. I dose formalin at 150 ppm with good aeration for 45 minutes. I settle the water and look for flukes afterwards. That said, what about just trying another FW dip?
Jay

 

[blackstallion]

Sorry! I am not sure why I dropped off your thread. Always feel free to bump me or send me a PM if I go AWOL...too many threads, not enough time!
Formalin baths will remove flukes pretty effectively, but less useful for protozoans and even less for bacterial issues. They can be pretty stressful, but the same thing as with FW dips: if a fish dies after this procedure, and it was done correctly, the fish was destined to die soon if SOME treatment wasn’t enacted. I dose formalin at 150 ppm with good aeration for 45 minutes. I settle the water and look for flukes afterwards. That said, what about just trying another FW dip?
Jay

The last FW dip was 7 days ago and I have not seen any recurrence of the white spots nor mucous coat agitation.

My reason for this post was to guage whether it would be better to proceed by simply observing for now OR to proactively treat with Formalin to better my odds?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I would just observe for now, formalin isn’t risk free.
jay

 

[blackstallion]

I would just observe for now, formalin isn’t risk free.
jay

I have been observing for a week and now am seeing the same spots or mucous coat issues as before.

What would be the best path forward?

It has been suggested to Formalin dip followed by transfer to sterile tank. Also dose Kanaplex + Metroplex every 48 hours for at least 10 days, and food soak General Cure.

Any other suggestions or opinions on how to proceed?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Skip the General cure soaking the food, that doesn’t work (see my medicated food article here).
The formalin dip to a new tank is a good idea; 150 ppm formalin dip for 45 minutes with good aeration.
The kanaplex won’t hurt, but I’m not sure it is warranted in this case.
Jay

 

[blackstallion]

Skip the General cure soaking the food, that doesn’t work (see my medicated food article here).
The formalin dip to a new tank is a good idea; 150 ppm formalin dip for 45 minutes with good aeration.
The kanaplex won’t hurt, but I’m not sure it is warranted in this case.
Jay

The reason I was planning on food soaking and feeding is because they have white stringy feces. If food soaking is not affective, what other way can I treat the white stringy feces?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Soaking food in medication is a completely uncontrolled dose. It is like my handing you a handful of pills and saying "here, take some". Take a look at the third paragraph of this article:

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods

This article offers information about developing medicated foods for aquarium fish

www.reef2reef.com

Often, white stringy feces are just a sign of the gut microbiome being upset. It can also be a sign of protozoan imbalance (some protozoans in the gut are normal, but in some cases they get out of hand).

Jay

 

[blackstallion]

Soaking food in medication is a completely uncontrolled dose. It is like my handing you a handful of pills and saying "here, take some". Take a look at the third paragraph of this article:

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods

This article offers information about developing medicated foods for aquarium fish

www.reef2reef.com

Often, white stringy feces are just a sign of the gut microbiome being upset. It can also be a sign of protozoan imbalance (some protozoans in the gut are normal, but in some cases they get out of hand).

Jay

So assuming the ONLY observable issue with the fish was the white stringy feces, would it be safe to introduce them into a community tank?

I will be performing the Formalin dip and then observing in a sterile tank for at least two weeks, but is the white feces still a concern?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I'm more concerned about the skin lesions, are they clearing up? I generally advise people to wait at least 14 days from the date of the last observable symptoms before moving fish into a DT....an personally, I always wait 30 days.

Does the clown have stringy feces all of the time, or do they look darker some times? What foods are you feeding it?

Jay

 

[blackstallion]

I'm more concerned about the skin lesions, are they clearing up? I generally advise people to wait at least 14 days from the date of the last observable symptoms before moving fish into a DT....an personally, I always wait 30 days.

Does the clown have stringy feces all of the time, or do they look darker some times? What foods are you feeding it?

Jay

The lesions, or mucous coat agitation, or spots (whatever you want to call them), are only really present on this one Orange Clownfish, and they are barely perceptible without a camera and flash. With the naked eye (as you can see in the video's), most would not peercieve them.

I'm starting to wonder if I'm reading to much into this??

Fact is, they've been out of the medicated Copper/Metro/Prazi tank for nearly 6 weeks so I would have thought if Brook/Ich/Velvet/Flukes were at play, it would have already been more prevelant and possibly infected all 3. Althogh I have performed 2 FW dips on the Orange guy and only 1 FW dip on the smallest Clown, the 3rd Clown never got a FW dip and he looks healthy.

They are not scratching or acting strange other than occasional trips to the surface for a gulp of air, BUT, seems they mostly do that when I approach, so possibly they think food is coming and they go to the surface. Doesn't seem like they necessarily prefer swimming into the flow either.

Regarding the white feces, I believe I am pretty consistently seeing it. I've mostly been feeding them Hikari Marine S Pellets and occasionally frozen mysis. Can white feces transmit worms/parasites to other fish and infect them?

I think at this point, since I have already set up a second sterile tank, I will move forward with the Formalin dip just to decrease any chances of infection. Then I can keep them in the sterile tank for a couple weeks and hopefully move them into the DT.

Just need to figure out what to do about the white feces as a Formalin dip will not treat for that...

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Those fish look pretty good to me. I can't remember, did I direct you to my article here on fish mucus? If not, here is an excerpt about feces:

Excess mucus in fish feces: this will present as white or light colored, stringy fecal material that often
hangs from the fish’s anus for a longer than normal period. There are a number of different causes for
this, some benign, others very serious. Without access to a microscope, there is little that can be done to
diagnose this issue effectively.
Idiopathic mucus feces: this fancy term is just to describe white mucoid bulky feces of no
serious consequence, but of an unknown cause. Some suspicion is that this can be caused by changes in
diet or diets high in fats.
Starvation: Fish that have no food moving through their bowels may excrete white mucoid feces
with little bulk to them. The primary diagnostic for this issue is evident in that the fish won’t been seen to
be eating. Resolving the anorexia is of course the prime focus to resolve this issue.
Bacterial infection: internal bacterial infections can cause stringy feces as well. While some of
these may resolve on their own, medicated foods containing a broad spectrum, gram negative oral
antibiotic may be required.
Metazoan infections: multicellular worms are often blamed for mucoid feces, but in reality, they
are almost never the root cause for this, and really, can only be diagnosed through looking for their ova in
fecal samples. Fish can harbor tapeworms and nematodes without producing mucoid feces.
Protozoan infection: Hexamita and related diplomonad flagellate protozoans very frequently
cause white stringy feces, especially in newly acquired clownfish. Metronidazole is the most frequent
treatment for this issue. It can be dosed orally at 25 mg per kg of fish body weight, or 5 g in a kg of food.
However, it is a very bitter medication, and some fish will refuse to feed on food containing it. It can be
dosed in the water at 25 mg/l, but this is more effective in treating marine fishes, as freshwater fish do not
“drink” aquarium water.
Coccidia: These microscopic, spore-forming, single-celled parasites are common diseases in
dogs and cats. In fish, they cause epithelial necrosis of the gut, enteritis and the copious production of
mucus (Noga 2010). These cannot be diagnosed without microscopic examination, and there is no well
researched cure for this in fishes, although Toltrazuril has been tested.
Constipation: This malady is often given as a cause for stringy feces, but it is not as common as
one would think. When it is seen, the feces are usually dark, not light in color. Often touted as a “cure
for constipation”, many aquarists add Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) to the aquarium’s water – do not
do this in marine aquariums, its use is primarily as a tonic/dip for freshwater fish. Seawater formulas
already contain between 7 and 19 grams of magnesium sulfate per gallon (depending on the recipe). NSW
magnesium level is around 1200 ppm and sulfur is around 840 ppm. Some benefit might be seen using it
as a dip in additional concentrations, but adding a small amount to a marine aquarium itself has no
benefit. Epsom salts do have some possible benefit when mixed into the food as a 3% by weight adjunct.
Another commonly heard remedy for constipation is; “feed fresh peas”. This is an effective cure for
fancy goldfish and Malawi cichlids that develop constipation and bloating. Again, overextrapolation has
marine aquarists trying to feed peas to carnivorous fish, etc. The best method to enhance gut motility in
fish is to feed frozen adult brine shrimp – not as a permanent diet, just long enough to get the constipation
resolved.

Jay

 

[blackstallion]

Those fish look pretty good to me. I can't remember, did I direct you to my article here on fish mucus? If not, here is an excerpt about feces:

Excess mucus in fish feces: this will present as white or light colored, stringy fecal material that often
hangs from the fish’s anus for a longer than normal period. There are a number of different causes for
this, some benign, others very serious. Without access to a microscope, there is little that can be done to
diagnose this issue effectively.
Idiopathic mucus feces: this fancy term is just to describe white mucoid bulky feces of no
serious consequence, but of an unknown cause. Some suspicion is that this can be caused by changes in
diet or diets high in fats.
Starvation: Fish that have no food moving through their bowels may excrete white mucoid feces
with little bulk to them. The primary diagnostic for this issue is evident in that the fish won’t been seen to
be eating. Resolving the anorexia is of course the prime focus to resolve this issue.
Bacterial infection: internal bacterial infections can cause stringy feces as well. While some of
these may resolve on their own, medicated foods containing a broad spectrum, gram negative oral
antibiotic may be required.
Metazoan infections: multicellular worms are often blamed for mucoid feces, but in reality, they
are almost never the root cause for this, and really, can only be diagnosed through looking for their ova in
fecal samples. Fish can harbor tapeworms and nematodes without producing mucoid feces.
Protozoan infection: Hexamita and related diplomonad flagellate protozoans very frequently
cause white stringy feces, especially in newly acquired clownfish. Metronidazole is the most frequent
treatment for this issue. It can be dosed orally at 25 mg per kg of fish body weight, or 5 g in a kg of food.
However, it is a very bitter medication, and some fish will refuse to feed on food containing it. It can be
dosed in the water at 25 mg/l, but this is more effective in treating marine fishes, as freshwater fish do not
“drink” aquarium water.
Coccidia: These microscopic, spore-forming, single-celled parasites are common diseases in
dogs and cats. In fish, they cause epithelial necrosis of the gut, enteritis and the copious production of
mucus (Noga 2010). These cannot be diagnosed without microscopic examination, and there is no well
researched cure for this in fishes, although Toltrazuril has been tested.
Constipation: This malady is often given as a cause for stringy feces, but it is not as common as
one would think. When it is seen, the feces are usually dark, not light in color. Often touted as a “cure
for constipation”, many aquarists add Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) to the aquarium’s water – do not
do this in marine aquariums, its use is primarily as a tonic/dip for freshwater fish. Seawater formulas
already contain between 7 and 19 grams of magnesium sulfate per gallon (depending on the recipe). NSW
magnesium level is around 1200 ppm and sulfur is around 840 ppm. Some benefit might be seen using it
as a dip in additional concentrations, but adding a small amount to a marine aquarium itself has no
benefit. Epsom salts do have some possible benefit when mixed into the food as a 3% by weight adjunct.
Another commonly heard remedy for constipation is; “feed fresh peas”. This is an effective cure for
fancy goldfish and Malawi cichlids that develop constipation and bloating. Again, overextrapolation has
marine aquarists trying to feed peas to carnivorous fish, etc. The best method to enhance gut motility in
fish is to feed frozen adult brine shrimp – not as a permanent diet, just long enough to get the constipation
resolved.

Jay

Yes, I did read that article, but still do not know path forward since I already dosed with Metro in the hospital tank 6 weeks ago.

The feces are white and stringy, not bulky from your description of change in diet feces.

I have been trying to feed the Hikari Marine S pellets soaked in API GC for about a week to try and resolve this. I realize you believe it is not effective, but I don't have other options at this point. Are there any good foods with medicine added you can recommend?