Help! Lost all live stock in 12 hour span!

[peopleschoice]

What was your salinity level at the time? And temp?

 

[Brandon1014]

Just left lfs with all of the deceased. They did not see any signs of velvet or any other parasite at all. Crystal clear eyes, everything looked good. They even stated they were perfect. Back to being baffled again. Maybe it does point to some sort of toxin. Although the corals seem to be doing fine, they are all relatively hardy species.

 

[Brandon1014]

What was your salinity level at the time? And temp?

SG at 1.025 and temperature 78

 

[HB AL]

Well thats a head scratcher if the corals arent affected, hopefully you find the cause.

 

[HotRocks]

Well thats a head scratcher if the corals arent affected, hopefully you find the cause.

I'm scratching mine for sure.

Did they take a Gill scrape and view under a scope?

There were clearly no visible symptoms, but behavioral.

 

[ilyad]

This depends on the amount of time you are able to spend observing fish.

I personally only have about 20 minutes a day to spend in my QT room (I am in construction, so this time of year I am not home much). Not enough time to observe properly for hidden velvet symptoms, flukes etc IMO. So I chose to treat prophylactically for "most" disease/Parasites. The other thing is, every online order of fish I have received has one of or a combination of Flukes/ich/Velvet. This is solely up to you and there is not a right or a wrong way.

My regiment usually in the following order (I begin after fish are settled and eating well for at least three days, unless I see signs of velvet)
Copper for 30 days (Covers Ich/Velvet) I use Chelated copper - Copper Power (Using a 5-7 day ramp up period to reach the therapeutic level
API General Cure 2 Doses (Covers Flukes/Brook/Black ich) Can be combined with copper if necessary but not recommended unless "have to"
Feed Metro/Focus mixed into frozen food (Covers Internal Parasites/Worms)
Observe for 14 days med free to make sure everyone is "Clean"

I keep Methylene Blue on hand for "rough arrivals" I had to give an Achilles tang a bath in MB on my last shipment he was in a bag that was way too small and I suspected ammonia issues (He is great now).
I do also keep Ruby Reef Rally on hand for an antiseptic bath if need be.
Several antibiotics on hand as well JIC. Metroplex, Kanaplex, and Furan-2. I only use if necessary.

This is all R2R grown, @4FordFamily helped me get going, and through research and learning and much advice from @Humblefish this is what I do today. Again you can Do whatever works best for you and your schedule, and also sometimes my plan above may have to be adapted depending on what I am dealing with.

Quoting this because I've been contemplating setting up a QT and after some reading, this covers a lot of what I want to do.

That being said, Brandon, it sounds like a terrible situation to be in, especially if you cannot make any sense. Only real thing I can think of if there are no real symptoms of any illness is that the fish were oxygen deprived. Did you by any chance start a bio pellet reactor, or dose a lot of bacteria? That could have depleted the O2 levels in the tank.

 

[4FordFamily]

Just left lfs with all of the deceased. They did not see any signs of velvet or any other parasite at all. Crystal clear eyes, everything looked good. They even stated they were perfect. Back to being baffled again. Maybe it does point to some sort of toxin. Although the corals seem to be doing fine, they are all relatively hardy species.

I wouldn’t rely on an LFS to diagnose disease. Most average hobbyists know more about fish disease.

Quoting this because I've been contemplating setting up a QT and after some reading, this covers a lot of what I want to do.

That being said, Brandon, it sounds like a terrible situation to be in, especially if you cannot make any sense. Only real thing I can think of if there are no real symptoms of any illness is that the fish were oxygen deprived. Did you by any chance start a bio pellet reactor, or dose a lot of bacteria? That could have depleted the O2 levels in the tank.

Well, if it helps — @HotRocks joined the hobby 10 months ago, and at my suggestion quarantined everything properly. As a result of this and his own research/quickly-acquired wherewithal— he is able to keep several expert level fish including regal angel, moorish idol, leopard wrasse, Achilles tang, potters angel, and others. It took me nearly a decade to figure it out...

 

[Brandon1014]

Quoting this because I've been contemplating setting up a QT and after some reading, this covers a lot of what I want to do.

That being said, Brandon, it sounds like a terrible situation to be in, especially if you cannot make any sense. Only real thing I can think of if there are no real symptoms of any illness is that the fish were oxygen deprived. Did you by any chance start a bio pellet reactor, or dose a lot of bacteria? That could have depleted the O2 levels in the tank.

Actually, I did treat the tank for red slime algae. It does state that o2 needs to be increased during treatment. U did place an airstone and even adjusted a powerhead for more agitation. I did 25% water change after 48 hours and removed the airstone. Maybe that wasn't enough or maybe I removed the airstone too soon?

I also just came up with another possibility. I just discovered that my wife windexed the tank Sunday afternoon! Which she might have accidently gotten some in the tank. Can't say for sure. She said she was VERY careful. Would this kill fish within 24 hours? But what about the corals and inverts? They are still totally fine. Maybe a small dose effects fish more than corals? I would think the opposite though...

 

[ilyad]

Actually, I did treat the tank for red slime algae. It does state that o2 needs to be increased during treatment. U did place an airstone and even adjusted a powerhead for more agitation. I did 25% water change after 48 hours and removed the airstone. Maybe that wasn't enough or maybe I removed the airstone too soon?

I also just came up with another possibility. I just discovered that my wife windexed the tank Sunday afternoon! Which she might have accidently gotten some in the tank. Can't say for sure. Would this kill fish within 24 hours? But what about the corals and inverts? They are still totally fine. Maybe a small dose effects fish more than corals? I would think the opposite though...

I also think windex would effect coral before fish, but probably not a good idea to windex the tank in the future. Just RO water, or RO with a tiny bit of vinegar added will do the trick.

That being said, depending how big (or actually small) your tank is, 4 fish can deplete 02 quite quickly, especially when its being treated. Air stone should have alleviated the problem, but very hard to tell how little oxygen there was in the tank. If I had to bet, it had to do something with that treatment, whether robbing 02, or contaminated product itself.

Edit: Also, I did want to add that although the tank had been previously ran for a while, you did change the sand (if I understood correctly) and it may have recycled again. I'd treat it as a newly cycled tank and expect it to go through its ugly phase of different algaes and blooms. I would let it be and let it do its thing for some time before actively trying to treat things, at least with additives. Obviously changing flow, light, etc, you're ok with.

 

[HB AL]

Well with the added info I'm gonna guess it might have been major oxygen depletion, as the windex would not have killed the fish that quick and the corals woulda been bumming out too.

 

[4FordFamily]

I’ve wiped my tank with winded hundreds of times. I’m either lucky or it’s harmless :shrug:

 

[Brandon1014]

Yeah oxygen is what I'm leaning towards too. That actually explains alot. I will be performing another water change and buying a test kit tomorrow. Once I know oxygen levels are good I will add some chromis and see how they do for a few weeks. And even though this doesn't sound like some sort of disease or parasite I will definitely be using a quarantine system from now on. Some of these horror stories and scenarios I've heard looking into this are just terrifying and definitely worth the extra effort.

This discussion has definitely been an eye opener and I'm glad we've finally come up with a scenario that actually makes sense. Thank you to everyone for your input!

 

[4FordFamily]

For what it's worth, I cannot imagine oxygen being bad enough to cause this. Do you have a sump? skimmer? open top? Powerheads?

If so, I'm extremely hesitant to think oxygen played a role.

 

[Brandon1014]

For what it's worth, I cannot imagine oxygen being bad enough to cause this. Do you have a sump? skimmer? open top? Powerheads?

If so, I'm extremely hesitant to think oxygen played a role.

I have a HOB skimmer, powerhead, and canister filter. In the process of making a sump to swap out for the canister in the new tank I'm setting up. Open top. Which is what made me nervous about my wife using Windex in the glass. But again I feel Windex or ant other toxin would have effected the corals before the fish, unless its just a slower process for them. Do corals and inverts use less oxygen than fish?

 

[ilyad]

I have a HOB skimmer, powerhead, and canister filter. In the process of making a sump to swap out for the canister in the new tank I'm setting up. Open top. Which is what made me nervous about my wife using Windex in the glass. But again I feel Windex or ant other toxin would have effected the corals before the fish, unless its just a slower process for them. Do corals and inverts use less oxygen than fish?

Iverts use very little oxygen. Corals actually like plans use CO2 and give off oxygen. Of course no oxygen at all would kill both, but low oxygen wouldn’t have much effect on them. Fish use a good amount of oxygen. Also sitting near pumps, surface, or in the stream may be their efforts to be near the more oxygenated waters.

That being said, skimmer and pump usually provide sufficient gas exchange to support the fish. I think in your case whatever you dosed was the culprit, whether it was O2 loss or otherwise. What did you dose? Someone may chime in on the product itself.

Also, often times the instructions on dosing may be hard to follow unless you know for sure what your actual water volume is. For example, let’s say you have a 25 gallon tank, but due to rocks and sand, you would actually have 20 gallon. If the instructions says a cap for each 25 gallon and you put a cap, you’ve overdosed the product by an extra 25%!! That kind of dosing can easily mess things up for the fish and other Kroger’s.

 

[Brandon1014]

Iverts use very little oxygen. Corals actually like plans use CO2 and give off oxygen. Of course no oxygen at all would kill both, but low oxygen wouldn’t have much effect on them. Fish use a good amount of oxygen. Also sitting near pumps, surface, or in the stream may be their efforts to be near the more oxygenated waters.

That being said, skimmer and pump usually provide sufficient gas exchange to support the fish. I think in your case whatever you dosed was the culprit, whether it was O2 loss or otherwise. What did you dose? Someone may chime in on the product itself.

Also, often times the instructions on dosing may be hard to follow unless you know for sure what your actual water volume is. For example, let’s say you have a 25 gallon tank, but due to rocks and sand, you would actually have 20 gallon. If the instructions says a cap for each 25 gallon and you put a cap, you’ve overdosed the product by an extra 25%!! That kind of dosing can easily mess things up for the fish and other Kroger’s.

Yeah looking back at everything the dosing causing lack of dissovllved o2 seems to be spot on. Especially the way the blenny was acting.
I used boyd enterprises chemiclean. I accounted for the water volume with the rock and sand. It even stated it was safe to double the dose if the problem was extreme, but I still stuck with a single dose and planned to see how it went. So i don't think it was due to overdosing, but I probably should have left the airstone in a bit longer. In hindsight, I should have tested o2 levels before removing it.

I have an o2 tester ordered, but I'm assuming my levels are probably back to normal by now. If that's the case, I might try another dose the same way I did the last and test throughout the next week or so to confirm that in fact was the issue

 

[ilyad]

Yeah looking back at everything the dosing causing lack of dissovllved o2 seems to be spot on. Especially the way the blenny was acting.
I used boyd enterprises chemiclean. I accounted for the water volume with the rock and sand. It even stated it was safe to double the dose if the problem was extreme, but I still stuck with a single dose and planned to see how it went. So i don't think it was due to overdosing, but I probably should have left the airstone in a bit longer. In hindsight, I should have tested o2 levels before removing it.

I have an o2 tester ordered, but I'm assuming my levels are probably back to normal by now. If that's the case, I might try another dose the same way I did the last and test throughout the next week or so to confirm that in fact was the issue

Ive only read about Chemiclean, but never used it myself, so I can't chime in on that. If you were still running the system, it would most likely oxygenate by now to full capacity. Id search this forum for people's experience with Chemiclean and see if others had the same issue as you did with fish suffocating.

 

[Brandon1014]

Ive only read about Chemiclean, but never used it myself, so I can't chime in on that. If you were still running the system, it would most likely oxygenate by now to full capacity. Id search this forum for people's experience with Chemiclean and see if others had the same issue as you did with fish suffocating.

Well there you go. Found this in another thread. Sounds all too familiar...

"So with doing everything the best I could (0tds ro/di wc's,filter maint,gfo,carbon,etc.) and all params were in check.I decided to try chemiclean to see if it would help and it did,the tank looked great with one exception,it depleted my tank of O2 and I lost all but 2 fish,all inverts and quite a few corals in the process.

After being so fustrated with following the instructions to the "T",that I wrote Mr.Boyd explaining my thoughts of his product.He called me back in person and we had a lengthy conversation as to why what happened happened.It seems the lack of dissolved oxygen came from using an 18" bubblewand,he said that the bubbles produced from them are too big and rise to fast to have enough contact time with the water to add enough dissolved oxygen to it and that I needed to use a wooden airstone that releases the "mist" of microbubbles,thus giving much longer contact time with the water for proper areation."

 

[ilyad]

Well there you go. Found this in another thread. Sounds all too familiar...

"So with doing everything the best I could (0tds ro/di wc's,filter maint,gfo,carbon,etc.) and all params were in check.I decided to try chemiclean to see if it would help and it did,the tank looked great with one exception,it depleted my tank of O2 and I lost all but 2 fish,all inverts and quite a few corals in the process.

After being so fustrated with following the instructions to the "T",that I wrote Mr.Boyd explaining my thoughts of his product.He called me back in person and we had a lengthy conversation as to why what happened happened.It seems the lack of dissolved oxygen came from using an 18" bubblewand,he said that the bubbles produced from them are too big and rise to fast to have enough contact time with the water to add enough dissolved oxygen to it and that I needed to use a wooden airstone that releases the "mist" of microbubbles,thus giving much longer contact time with the water for proper areation."

That’s good to know! I would have never though of a wooden stone.

 

[Brew12]

Well there you go. Found this in another thread. Sounds all too familiar...

"So with doing everything the best I could (0tds ro/di wc's,filter maint,gfo,carbon,etc.) and all params were in check.I decided to try chemiclean to see if it would help and it did,the tank looked great with one exception,it depleted my tank of O2 and I lost all but 2 fish,all inverts and quite a few corals in the process.

After being so fustrated with following the instructions to the "T",that I wrote Mr.Boyd explaining my thoughts of his product.He called me back in person and we had a lengthy conversation as to why what happened happened.It seems the lack of dissolved oxygen came from using an 18" bubblewand,he said that the bubbles produced from them are too big and rise to fast to have enough contact time with the water to add enough dissolved oxygen to it and that I needed to use a wooden airstone that releases the "mist" of microbubbles,thus giving much longer contact time with the water for proper areation."

I'm a big fan of wooden air stones but I'm not sure I would count on this as the cause. It is extremely unlikely to have low O2 in a system with an operating skimmer. Your skimmer should be putting more O2 into the water than even a large wooden air stone is capable of.