HELP! MY SPS ARE PALING AND I DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO

[illjoshlli]

Well,
after 3 weeks I'm not having so much luck. I've been monitoring and dosing to keep my Nitrates around 2ppm. I've had a few corals color up a little and a few others go pale. I've now had one completely die. After a week My Cyano started disappearing but has started coming back again with some force. I would say the issue is with the corals are most likely due to the nitrates stripping my PO4. Unless, some other factor is at play...

From a testing perspective my P04 has been a constant .02-.05 for 6 months. My nitrate has been 0 until I started dosing 3 weeks ago with a ramp up to 2ppm
Below are my levels as of yesterday. the levels have been very consistent for 6 months. My Alk has slowly reduced from 8.5 to 7.4(ish) over the past month. I have leveled it there.

Alk:133
Mag:1320
PO4 .007 ppm
Nitrate 2 ppm
Salinity: 35

Looking back over my pictures from the last 3 weeks the few paling corals started paling even more right after dosing.

I would really appreciate some advice/input on next steps.

In the pictures below the left pic is most recent and the right is 3 weeks ago prior to dosing. (other than the first 2 picture which is a close up to see what is happening to the coral)



Blue Tort a couple of days ago:


Blue Tort today vs 3 weeks ago

 

[illjoshlli]

Well,
after 3 weeks I'm not having so much luck. I've been monitoring and dosing to keep my Nitrates around 2ppm. I've had a few corals color up a little and a few others go pale. I've now had one completely die. After a week My Cyano started disappearing but has started coming back again with some force. I would say the issue is with the corals are most likely due to the nitrates stripping my PO4. Unless, some other factor is at play...

From a testing perspective my P04 has been a constant .02-.05 for 6 months. My nitrate has been 0 until I started dosing 3 weeks ago with a ramp up to 2ppm
Below are my levels as of yesterday. the levels have been very consistent for 6 months. My Alk has slowly reduced from 8.5 to 7.4(ish) over the past month. I have leveled it there.

Alk:133
Mag:1320
PO4 .007 ppm
Nitrate 2 ppm
Salinity: 35

Looking back over my pictures from the last 3 weeks the few paling corals started paling even more right after dosing.

I would really appreciate some advice/input on next steps.

In the pictures below the left pic is most recent and the right is 3 weeks ago prior to dosing. (other than the first 2 picture which is a close up to see what is happening to the coral)



Blue Tort a couple of days ago:


Blue Tort today vs 3 weeks ago

@Russ265 @Randy Holmes-Farley Do have any thoughts/suggestions?

 

[Russ265]

shut off the skimmer.
lower the lights. -or shorten peak duration
have lights closer to blue spectrum.

get nitrates to 5
po4: .02

monitor for a week

also cyano is known to suck nitrates up like a sponge. id try a round of chemiclean to purge the system.

 

[Brandon McHenry]

First of all Happy Thanksgiving to everybody!

I have a question that pertains to this thread and I was wondering if I could get some suggestions. I have a 150 gallon SPS tank stocked fairly heavily with coral, some up to a foot across. I've noticed lately that my corals are sort of drab in appearance (however some still do look quite nice). When testing my water I began thinking about my nutrients, which have always been low (no3:0.25ppm po4:0.003ppm). So out of curiosity I took some potassium nitrate and bumped it up to 3ppm. When I woke up and checked it today it dropped back down to 0.25. So is it possible that my tank used 2.75ppm of nitrate in less than 24hours? And if so, how much do I need to add this time to keep it above 0.25ppm?

 

[JMLewis]

I have a bit of a dilemma.

I've recently come upon this thread and after much reading have determined that zero no3 is definitely the cause of me losing 80% of my Sps that completely paled over the last 6 weeks and and are mostly dead now. I started dosing kno3 via Spectracide stump remover almost a week ago and the few that I have left have stopped dying and are at a bit of a holding phase, not getting better yet but definitely not getting worse. I brought my no3 up to 5ppm.

I'm currently battling Chrysophytes which is basically a golden colored hair algae that survives on silicate in the water. Which i beleive is not being taken out by my RO/DI. So to battle it I'm running GFO, which is working and have seen about a 50% decrease over the past couple weeks. However I was curious as to why after having my no3 at 5ppm for almost a week I've still not seen any algae on the glass. So I tested my p04 with the Hanna ULR Phosphorus tester and I'm reading 0ppm...

About 8 weeks ago (2 weeks before my sps started paling) I introduced a fish that had velvet unknowingly and lost all but 1 of my fish so right now I'm only feeding 1/4 cube of frozen daily which understandably is not enough po4 for the system to be in balance.

So I'm looking into dosing po4 via Seachem Flourish Phosphorus while continuing to run GFO for the silicate and wanted to see what you guys thought about that. I feel like even with 5ppm no3 I'm not going to see any recovery without phosphate in the water. Does anyone have experience with this sort of dilemma I'm facing here?

 

[JMLewis]

@Russ265 @twilliard

Went ahead and added a very small amount of the Seachem Phosphorus, I'd say around .5ml and tested with Hanna ULR a couple hours later and ended up at 6 = .02 ppm. Gonna retest in the morning and see if my GFO ends up taking it all out quickly.

 

[Sabellafella]

I have a bit of a dilemma.

I've recently come upon this thread and after much reading have determined that zero no3 is definitely the cause of me losing 80% of my Sps that completely paled over the last 6 weeks and and are mostly dead now. I started dosing kno3 via Spectracide stump remover almost a week ago and the few that I have left have stopped dying and are at a bit of a holding phase, not getting better yet but definitely not getting worse. I brought my no3 up to 5ppm.

I'm currently battling Chrysophytes which is basically a golden colored hair algae that survives on silicate in the water. Which i beleive is not being taken out by my RO/DI. So to battle it I'm running GFO, which is working and have seen about a 50% decrease over the past couple weeks. However I was curious as to why after having my no3 at 5ppm for almost a week I've still not seen any algae on the glass. So I tested my p04 with the Hanna ULR Phosphorus tester and I'm reading 0ppm...

About 8 weeks ago (2 weeks before my sps started paling) I introduced a fish that had velvet unknowingly and lost all but 1 of my fish so right now I'm only feeding 1/4 cube of frozen daily which understandably is not enough po4 for the system to be in balance.

So I'm looking into dosing po4 via Seachem Flourish Phosphorus while continuing to run GFO for the silicate and wanted to see what you guys thought about that. I feel like even with 5ppm no3 I'm not going to see any recovery without phosphate in the water. Does anyone have experience with this sort of dilemma I'm facing here?

Ive had corals get pale while my n03 sat around 10 but my phosphates were undetectable. Im not one to feed flake foods or pellets or additives, but once i started using flake my p04 hovered around .02 and everything looked and grew 100× better. I use about 2 cubes of frozen everyday, and that alone wasnt enuff. 0 on the phosphorus checker is bad, so i would deffinitly look into feeding nutrient rich foods. Snails and hermits devour that algae btw, it is a pain to get rid of but itll go away eventually

 

[JMLewis]

Snails and hermits devour that algae btw, it is a pain to get rid of but itll go away eventually

I wish that were the case in my situation, but I've bought turbo snails and sea hares and they won't touch the stuff and eventually end up starving to death. The GFO is definitely having an impact so until it's completely gone I want to keep it going.

 

[JMLewis]

So 24 hours later po4 was back to zero, added another 1ml and brought it back to .02. Didn't have a chance to test this morning light, so gonna try again in the morning. In the mean time I turned my GFO down to where it's barely moving, gonna look into ways to remove silicate from my ro/DI water before it hits my ato container.

 

[Lninwa]

Ok this writeup is just something I will do to reference everyone who has ulns (ultra low nutrient systems).

Constantly I am asked in mails, forums, etc how to solve this issue. I will explain how I came up with this solution and how you can overcome this disheartening problem.

For this post I will go over the acronyms and what I mean when I use them.

po4: phosphate / phosphorus
no3: nitrate / nitrogen
C: carbon
ulns: ultra low nutrient system
lns: low nutrient system

ulns has been used so much I dont know where to begin with what it "really" is. However for the sake of this article it means that you have a no3 and po4 deficit.
What is a no3 and po4 deficit you ask? It means that if you were to dose phosphorus and nitrogen in to the system that it would eat it up and get you down to 0 ppm without any water changes.

Contrary to popular belief. A REAL 0 ppm no3 and po4 reading is a major problem. You will witness corals pale, turn bone white, while people tell you to feed more or turn down the lights. There is some truth to this but let us get to the heart of the matter shall we?

A long time ago some old guy (who is gone now) discovered something called the redfield ratio. (google this for more info as i will do a synopsis)
Redfield ratio and all it's spin-off theories state that photosynthesis occurs in the ocean at a near universal rate of 106C:16:no3:1 po4.

Now while I wont get in to the deviations of benthic macroalgae or of other life. It is a REAL GOOD IDEA to use it as a guideline.

So what does that mean to the aquarist?
Well it means if you do not have no3, or po4, or carbon.... bye bye corals. They have nothing to photosynthesize. They cant use alternative fuel like lithium or plutonium to synthesize... so they pale. The zooxanthellae which is a dinoflagellate is the same as algae. (in layman's terms). They need it. And you probably have just enough no3 and po4 to get them hold on for dear life.

How do we solve it?
Well we know that po4 is the LEAST needed for photosynthesis. So getting it is easy to come by. Even by my tank which sucks up nutrients like a sponge. Every time you feed, touch, or even look at the tank, po4 will be in the water column. The only exception to this is a GFO overdose. If you are overdosing GFO you will basically have nothing for it to photosynthesize. Remember the redfield ratio of 16no3 to 1po4? yeah... it's a marriage. Need em all buddy. So make sure you have some.

I have observed that po4 measurements of .02ish is optimum. However up to .08 is fine as well. (although some life will get irked)

no3 should be around 2ppm - 5ppm for optimal coral coloration. If 2ppm or below is observed for longer than a week, corals will pale. Mine will pale within 72 hours. It is essential to keep no3 above po4 to prevent nuisance algae like GHA and to not get in to the cyano trap of po4 being greater than no3.

How do we avoid this? Well we can use sodium nitrate (the byproduct is salt and relatively safe) or potassium nitrate (byproduct can be potassium and possibly overdose). I choose the latter because I do have a potassium kit and it is readily available within Seachem's Flourish Nitrogen formula. Care should be taken and warning should be given. I have not observed any detrimental effects, however if you want to go the powdered "pure" route, you can look up salt peter or spectracide stump remover from lowes which is essentially the same stuff.

Alkalinity has been also an issue with ULNS. I have observed alk above 8 to make my birdnest recede and even RTN if approaching the 9s. Many a birdnest I have lost wondering what my issue was until I dropped alk down to the 7s. I personally maintain alk between 7.2 and 7.8 at all times. At 8 or above... my sps get irritable. This could also be the issue with ulns and high alk where burnt tips occur due to the skeletal formation of calcium carbonate forming faster than the photosynthetic ability of the coral via the zooxanthellae.

LIGHT:
If you have strong strong light and you have no nutrients, you are really just stressing the heck out of the sps because there is nothing to photosynthesize. You need these nutrients, and the less you have, the lesser your light should be discourage photosynthesis. We are always told more light, more par, more pur, but in the end, if the building blocks are not there... degradation occurs. There is no reason to have a 1000 hp engine, if you have no gas to go somewhere.

what does 0 no3/po4 look like?

day 1

day 4

day 10

day 15
2 weeks later... total loss.

another example @Pete polyp

before...


after...


after 2 months on the no3 dosing retained at 4ppm @smh254 's results....

before



after...



before...



after...




Twilliard's thread on spectracide stump remover (most cost effective)

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/potassium-nitrate-spectracide-stump-remover-dosing-steps.215730/

for more information about it contact @twilliard

For further note... You may want to look in to zooxanthellae and their different lineages. To us hobbyists we refer to zooxanthellae as the "brown stuff" in a coral. Clade C of symbiodinium is most dominant in our systems and has different requirements than say Clade D.

These all call for some interesting reading, and give the foundation for a successful coral and it's symbionts.

Additional Information:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.4319/lo.2007.52.3.1139/full

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.4319/lo.1999.44.3.0716/full

special thanks to @mcarroll for this one

https://www.researchgate.net/public...temperate_coral_Astrangia_J_Exp_Mar_Biol_Ecol

symbiodinium densities in relation to skeleton and transport:

http://www.biolbull.org/content/141/2/350.full.pdf

acropora tenuis nitrate uptake dependent on temperature:

http://www.nature.com/ismej/journal/v7/n6/abs/ismej201312a.html

this one is paid... but was informative...
http://rd.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00227-004-1529-x

Hope this helps
-Russ

edit
1: flourish nitrogen does not contain copper, regular flourish does.
2: added example time lapse

Thank you, this makes a lot of sense

 

[Russ265]

I have a bit of a dilemma.

I've recently come upon this thread and after much reading have determined that zero no3 is definitely the cause of me losing 80% of my Sps that completely paled over the last 6 weeks and and are mostly dead now. I started dosing kno3 via Spectracide stump remover almost a week ago and the few that I have left have stopped dying and are at a bit of a holding phase, not getting better yet but definitely not getting worse. I brought my no3 up to 5ppm.

I'm currently battling Chrysophytes which is basically a golden colored hair algae that survives on silicate in the water. Which i beleive is not being taken out by my RO/DI. So to battle it I'm running GFO, which is working and have seen about a 50% decrease over the past couple weeks. However I was curious as to why after having my no3 at 5ppm for almost a week I've still not seen any algae on the glass. So I tested my p04 with the Hanna ULR Phosphorus tester and I'm reading 0ppm...

About 8 weeks ago (2 weeks before my sps started paling) I introduced a fish that had velvet unknowingly and lost all but 1 of my fish so right now I'm only feeding 1/4 cube of frozen daily which understandably is not enough po4 for the system to be in balance.

So I'm looking into dosing po4 via Seachem Flourish Phosphorus while continuing to run GFO for the silicate and wanted to see what you guys thought about that. I feel like even with 5ppm no3 I'm not going to see any recovery without phosphate in the water. Does anyone have experience with this sort of dilemma I'm facing here?

its rare, but ive dosed seachem phosphate every once in a while. both nitrogen and phosphate are needed for photosynthesis, its just that phosphate is the least needed and is usually supplemented by food alone

 

[Alfrareef]

Thank you, this makes a lot of sense

Here here.

 

[atp0726]

What is everyone keeping their ALK at and is there a recommended ALK level when dosing NO3? Before dosing and running basically the ultra low nutrient system I kept mine in the high 7 dkh range usually hovering around 7.8. Other than increased growth is there any benefit to increasing the ALK level or is it fine to leave as is?

I keep No3 at around 4ppm and P04 hovers around .02-.03.

 

[Spschief85]

Every tank is different by all means 7.8 is fine. Your no3 and po4 are perfect I would try to aim for 8.2 to 8.5 for alk I found this works best for me when I keep nutrients in the water... my params are 8.2 alk 420 cal 1400 mag

 

[mcarroll]

I wish that were the case in my situation, but I've bought turbo snails and sea hares and they won't touch the stuff and eventually end up starving to death. The GFO is definitely having an impact so until it's completely gone I want to keep it going.

This is your low PO4. Under low PO4 conditions, some algae (more than you might suspect) can go toxic to avoid predation/extinction.

Keep both NO3 and PO4 managed (non-zero) to avoid this. Use manual removal on as much algae as you can in the mean time.....new growth won't be toxic and critter will start eating it again.

I've got some interesting links in my blog's Nutrients section on this, such as:
Bacterivory in algae: A survival strategy during nutrient limitation

 

[David_Ewen]

I am a lot more paranoid about what goes in so i went and got the food/lab grade sodium nitrate. at least makes me feel better if anything lol

Hey Adam, I'm with you on purity, where did you get the food grade sodium nitrate?

 

[bubbaque]

Wonder what happened to @Russ265 I haven't seen him in a while. He made some good threads, like this one.

 

[mcarroll]

Yeah I don't know...unresponsive to the last few mentions I've made too. Life sometimes beckons!

Hopefully he's not gone for good like @robert. More good threads there.

 

[David_Ewen]

Yeah I don't know...unresponsive to the last few mentions I've made too. Life sometimes beckons!

Hopefully he's not gone for good like @robert. More good threads there.

Matt,
Thanks for posting the calculator. I'll be using it tomorrow. I've lost 3 sps frags, 1 is just starting to rtn, and my colors aren't so good. All other parameters are good.

 

[mcarroll]

Matt,
Thanks for posting the calculator. I'll be using it tomorrow. I've lost 3 sps frags, 1 is just starting to rtn, and my colors aren't so good. All other parameters are good.

You have at least some PO4 in the water then?