HELP! MY SPS ARE PALING AND I DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO

[Ashish Patel]

Their site seems to be inaccessible for me at the moment, but they have some calculator info here too: Dose Calculators[/QUOTE]


Thanks for the calculator - big help!!! according to this calculator I will need to dose 30ML just to get to 1PPM. lets see

 

[teller]

Their site seems to be inaccessible for me at the moment, but they have some calculator info here too: Dose Calculators

Thanks for the calculator - big help!!! according to this calculator I will need to dose 30ML just to get to 1PPM. lets see[/QUOTE]
Just a note regarding a conversion factor between nitrate and nitrogen ppm values.
This conversation factor is mentioned both in the site calculator and in the bottle label.
I am also dosing flourish nitrogen but still do not know what is more important, the value as nitrate or the value as nitrogen in ppm.
Maybe @mcarroll can explain.

 

[Ashish Patel]

I started dosing seachem flourish nitrogen having undetectable nitrates.

day 1 - Dose 20ML - got detectable nitrates at around 2-3PPM Id say.
day 2 - dosed 10ML - maintained at 2-3PPM.
day 3 - dosed 5ML and 2-3PPM.
day 4 - No dosing =- tested 2-3PPM
day 5 (today) - Have not tested yet.


Negatives Observed:
1. got some minor diatom so I decided to test and was shocked to find Phosphates at 0.018 Last time 2 times I checked it was 0.04 and 0.05
2. 2 of my Newer Acropora colonies that where received brow started bleaching from the tips. Could the increase in nitrates lower the PO? I know low phosphates can bleach tips so this is my thoughts but not sure how this is possible with algae growth. All the other acropora do not seem to be effected at all.
3. I had a few aiptasia in the sump for about 1 month and they multiplied very fast in a short time after nitrate spike.
4. I noticed more algae growing on the sandbed.

No matter how long you have done this it is very challenging doing something new. I am concerned that the undetectable nitrates observed in my tank may have been sufficient for most of my SPS and increasing them could possibility have a negative effect on them. Perhaps it was just the Lighting that caused my stylos and monti's to pale and not the Nitrates. I think I will keep my nitrates less than 5PPM and above 2PPM,, These numbers vary so significantly because every tank has different bio loads and bacteria in your system.. Perhaps my tank is too new to handle the added nitrates5. The tank became more foggy.

ANY THOUGHTS?

 

[bubbaque]

In the picture you posted your corals didn't look pale.

 

[Ashish Patel]

In the picture you posted your corals didn't look pale.

The tank is fully stocked and fed 4 times per day so the undetectable reading was just a by product of consumption...I still think it is important to have some access NO/PO in the tank for the coral. I think I can achieve better grow this way especially since I can provide more light and increase ALK.

Most of the first corals I added started paling because I was running chemi pure elite (which is a GFO). fuge, and 250 PAR. The other corals where introduced after the nutrient export was cutt down aswell as the lighting. My first acro was a maricultured green fiji piece - More of a tester to see if I can keep it alive.. It turned out to be the most resilient coral in my tank.

 

[bubbaque]

I just think if your corals look the way you showed in picture you posted then I wouldn't start chasing numbers. You raising nitrates has seemed to be an only negative thing for you so far. There are plenty of great tanks with no detectable nitrates. Go look at reefnjunkies thread. He has no nitrates.

I think dosing nitrate is for people who has an obvious issue. If you were able to remove GFO and your colors came back I would let it be

 

[Rixar]

I have a question, it is possible to have no3 and po4, but have carbon limitation?

 

[bif24701]

I have a question, it is possible to have no3 and po4, but have carbon limitation?

To my understanding, absolutely. That's is why I add carbon (vinegar) everyday.

 

[bubbaque]

I believ carbon is often the limiting source for bacteria. That is why if you dose a carbon source the bacteria can grow and reduce nutrients until something else becomes limiting.

 

[Rixar]

When they say 3 are needed: po4, no3 and carbon, how carbon maybe refers to alkalinity?

 

[Rixar]

The chemical formula of bicarbonate is H2CO3, I suppose the carbon referred to in the construction is this

 

[Mattrg02]

Dang, so now we need carbon too?

I'm not able to get a phosphate reading. Anyone got a safe way to dose phosphates? I'm already feeding more frozen mysis, unwashed, than my fish can eat. Also using some freeze dried filter feeder food and dosing acropower.

 

[mcarroll]

I have a question, it is possible to have no3 and po4, but have carbon limitation?

Not really in a meaningful way.

Carbon limitation being good or bad depends on your perspective.

Corals and their kind prefer it limited because they can make their own C and use up available nutrients.

Bacteria and their kind prefer it to be unlimited since they can't make their own – and they're really good at using up available nutrients.

Read more here:
Effects of organic carbon, organic nitrogen, inorganic nutrients, and iron additions on the growth of phytoplankton and bacteria during a brown tide bloom

When they say 3 are needed: po4, no3 and carbon, how carbon maybe refers to alkalinity?

Yes, correct – bicarbonates.

But what strikes me is that the difference between CO2 (which is almost universally plentiful) and bicarbonate is only a carbonic anhydrase molecule....seems like C-limitation should be somewhat rare since it seems like many (if not most) critters have the use of Carbonic anhydrase. (See "Families" section.)

From what I can tell, most folks dose C in order to correct an imbalance of N or P – they don't even know a way to test their system's C so they aren't doing it because the "system is low on C".

And this strategy works a lot of the time....but I don't think it is the best way to handle a lot of those cases.

Dang, so now we need carbon too?

No...it's a bandwagon.

 

[125mph]

HELP Guys!!! I have been reefing for about 8 years now but have had very little success with corals ever since my upgrade from a 60G. Prior to the 60G upgrade, things went well...

However, with my 120G and now my 180G, all my corals introduced keep dying.. (Original coral taken from the 60G are thriving though). I have always had undetectable nitrates and phosphates with the larger tanks. The 60G had nitrates..

Anyway, I was recently directed to this thread and started dosing nitrates.. My coral looks exactly like the OP.. birdsnest slowly dwindle away and the tips go first.. It sounded like my corals are being starved based on what I read on this thread.. It is strange because I have 10+ fish and I feed heavily... BTW, all my other parameteres are spot on and stable. 8 alk and 420Ca, etc.

After dosing the nitrates, I got the levels to around 3-4ppm and have been holding that for about 3 weeks now. During that time period I also lowered my light so it wasnt very intense as that was recommended too. But things have gotten worse! Corals are looking much worse off than before.

Back last year, one thing I did was a series of large water changes over the course of 2 weeks. That actually helped a lot for about a 2 month.. So my question is, why does the series of water large changes last year helped my corals tremendously.. wouldnt the new water have no nutrients in it?

Right now I decided to try to go back to the series of large water changes again.. Should I continue to dose nitrate during this time or should I just let the water changes do its thing? I have to figure this out, I cant do all these large water changes forever.

 

[mcarroll]

I have always had undetectable nitrates and phosphates with the larger tanks. The 60G had nitrates..

You're on the right track – if you want fast-growing corals, they need nutrients!!

Dissolved nutrients are your corals' backup feeding system when the particulate food runs out....which is inevitable in our well-filtered tanks.

Nutrients – C, N and P
The crucial nutrients for life are carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus.

In an idealized system they get used up in the so-called "Redfield ratio" (see wikipedia).

Carbon (C) is used A LOT more than the other nutrients, but corals and algae (mostly) have no trouble with this thanks to photosynthesis. (A key competitive point between them and their allies vs bacteria and their allies.) Don't dose carbon (vodka, nopox, et al) and mess with this balance.

Under idealized conditions, nitrogen and phosphorus (N and P) get used in something like a 16:1 ratio by plankton.

When you addressed the nitrogen shortage, you enabled a growth spurt that used up all available phosphate – maybe as much as 0.10 ppm of phosphate for ever 1.6 ppm of nitrate...phosphate which may not have been there to begin with.

What To Do
If you are carbon dosing, stop.

Likewise, any filtration beyond a skimmer (marine pure blocks, filter socks, GFO, etc, et al) ought to be checked for necessity and maybe side-lined at this stage of the tank.

You might consider a phosphate additive to get things going....and maybe even some extra water changes for at least a degree of trace element balancing.

If you aren't feeding enough – even if you aren't feeding regularly enough – that could be the root of the problem.

Feeding more is not a short term solution though – that's what the liquid nutrients are for. Make any and all changes to the feeding routing small....and going forward, try to make feeding as regular as you can. For example, use an auto-feeder to help while you're not at the house....again start small with any changes.

 

[Flippers4pups]

HELP Guys!!! I have been reefing for about 8 years now but have had very little success with corals ever since my upgrade from a 60G. Prior to the 60G upgrade, things went well...

However, with my 120G and now my 180G, all my corals introduced keep dying.. (Original coral taken from the 60G are thriving though). I have always had undetectable nitrates and phosphates with the larger tanks. The 60G had nitrates..

Anyway, I was recently directed to this thread and started dosing nitrates.. My coral looks exactly like the OP.. birdsnest slowly dwindle away and the tips go first.. It sounded like my corals are being starved based on what I read on this thread.. It is strange because I have 10+ fish and I feed heavily... BTW, all my other parameteres are spot on and stable. 8 alk and 420Ca, etc.

After dosing the nitrates, I got the levels to around 3-4ppm and have been holding that for about 3 weeks now. During that time period I also lowered my light so it wasnt very intense as that was recommended too. But things have gotten worse! Corals are looking much worse off than before.

Back last year, one thing I did was a series of large water changes over the course of 2 weeks. That actually helped a lot for about a 2 month.. So my question is, why does the series of water large changes last year helped my corals tremendously.. wouldnt the new water have no nutrients in it?

Right now I decided to try to go back to the series of large water changes again.. Should I continue to dose nitrate during this time or should I just let the water changes do its thing? I have to figure this out, I cant do all these large water changes forever.

Increasing nutrients with corals that were starving doesn't equate to a sudden positive change in coral health. With that said, sadly even with food suddenly available to them, stressed corals may not recover. It takes time for healing.

Some SPS corals can take 6 months to a year to rebound. Slow and steady, and hope for the best.

There was a article by Michael Paletta that he had set up a new tank at his house and used "dry" dead rock. This was to be a SPS tank and during the course of a year most every SPS frag would fade and die. Even frags taken from his well established SPS tank and with spot on water pramameters. He tried everything he could to change this. After almost a year, he's friend Sanjay Joshi told him to change out the dry rock and replace it with "live" rock. After Sanjay told him this, Mike replaced all the dead rock with live rock and his SPS corals began to rebound, grow and became healthy once again.

Now, every tank is different and reefers husbandry is different.
I still believe that it takes a year for a tank to find its balance and establish its bacterial strains that are needed to help corals be healthy.
JMTCW.

 

[125mph]

Okay thanks. I'll do the water changes and continue to dose the nitrates.. Should I keep levels at 5ppm or go higher to 10ppm? I think I will lower alk to 7 too. Right now its around 8.

Here's example of what I'm talking about...

Three week old birdsnest.. tips are pretty much gone.. I think the rest will go in a week.

Here's a ducan i've had for about 6 months.. It has receeded for about the last 5 months.

 

[Ashish Patel]

HELP Guys!!! I have been reefing for about 8 years now but have had very little success with corals ever since my upgrade from a 60G. Prior to the 60G upgrade, things went well...

However, with my 120G and now my 180G, all my corals introduced keep dying.. (Original coral taken from the 60G are thriving though). I have always had undetectable nitrates and phosphates with the larger tanks. The 60G had nitrates..

Anyway, I was recently directed to this thread and started dosing nitrates.. My coral looks exactly like the OP.. birdsnest slowly dwindle away and the tips go first.. It sounded like my corals are being starved based on what I read on this thread.. It is strange because I have 10+ fish and I feed heavily... BTW, all my other parameteres are spot on and stable. 8 alk and 420Ca, etc.

After dosing the nitrates, I got the levels to around 3-4ppm and have been holding that for about 3 weeks now. During that time period I also lowered my light so it wasnt very intense as that was recommended too. But things have gotten worse! Corals are looking much worse off than before.

Back last year, one thing I did was a series of large water changes over the course of 2 weeks. That actually helped a lot for about a 2 month.. So my question is, why does the series of water large changes last year helped my corals tremendously.. wouldnt the new water have no nutrients in it?

Right now I decided to try to go back to the series of large water changes again.. Should I continue to dose nitrate during this time or should I just let the water changes do its thing? I have to figure this out, I cant do all these large water changes forever.

I dosed nitrates (big regret) because my system was used to high nutrient import/export. My fault for bringing nitrates from 0.02 to 3PPM in few days but this caused a bacteria bloom, cyano, and diatom bloom. Pretty much every coral in the tank was effected and I lost a good amount of frags.
I went back to just overfeeding based on nitrate levels. Natural all the way IMO>. I setup my tank without carbon dosing and GFO so going ULNS was never my goal. My nutrients are as Nitrates 0.03 and Phosphates 0.03-0.05 and my SPS do better with these levels aslong as I dosing aminos acids and feeding Reefchilli, Reef roids, and phytoplanton.

Dosing nitrates has to be a super slow process because its added nutrients so any amount is more than a system is used to handling. Make a few waterchanges and let the tank get back on track... 3 of my sps bleached from the base and created a ring, this was 5 weeks ago and the bleached ring is the dead tissue, I am considering fragging now as I don't believe they will encrust this section as they don't grow on dead tips, so why would they grow on dead base!

 

[Ashish Patel]

Having nitrates at 5-10PPM in a new systems to me is not equal to a tank with these nutrients levels after 2+ years.
New tank will have more algae problems and issues - Chasing numbers only got me in trouble and the few experts I met for corals got on my case when I told them about my nitrate dosing incident. They all said "what the heck is wrong with you".lol... they all said look at your corals and feed feed feed if your have low nutrients. If they are faded dim the lights or photoperiod, increase your feeding slightly, lower them in the tank. If keeping SPS was easy everyone would have amazing tanks but its not easy and it never will be, there are to many variables in this hobby!

 

[Flippers4pups]

I dosed nitrates (big regret) because my system was used to high nutrient import/export. My fault for bringing nitrates from 0.02 to 3PPM in few days but this caused a bacteria bloom, cyano, and diatom bloom. Pretty much every coral in the tank was effected and I lost a good amount of frags.
I went back to just overfeeding based on nitrate levels. Natural all the way IMO>. I setup my tank without carbon dosing and GFO so going ULNS was never my goal. My nutrients are as Nitrates 0.03 and Phosphates 0.03-0.05 and my SPS do better with these levels aslong as I dosing aminos acids and feeding Reefchilli, Reef roids, and phytoplanton.

Dosing nitrates has to be a super slow process because its added nutrients so any amount is more than a system is used to handling. Make a few waterchanges and let the tank get back on track... 3 of my sps bleached from the base and created a ring, this was 5 weeks ago and the bleached ring is the dead tissue, I am considering fragging now as I don't believe they will encrust this section as they don't grow on dead tips, so why would they grow on dead base!

They will grow over dead skeleton in time.