Help on strategy to RAISE phosphates and nitrates

Cire

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Hi everyone, I'm Eric from Ithaca NY...thanks for reading the post. I've had my reefer 350 up for 15 months to general success. I've been able to keep most everything I placed in the tank alive and well up until very recently. For the balance of a year I've had some nice euphilia, zoas, nems and a monti growing and looking colorful. Things took a turn about a month ago when I attempted to add an acro frag. Within 4 days the bright yellow frag had dulled to a dark brown. Panicking (when I should have been reading) I moved it around the tank thinking it must be the flow or lighting. Needless to say, it died within 20 days of getting it. Shortly after this loss, my Orange Monti started fading. What had always been a dark orange/pink color with white tips was starting to grow jagged edges and lose its hue. I took some time to look up the potential issue, ruled out nudis as the loss of tissue was on the edges. I then recalled that back in August I had increased the amount of GFO I'd been using (which was 30g) to 90g. I did this to "combat" a brownish algae covering the rocks. This was a tight clinging algae and not hairy or flowing. APEX readings before the GFO change were PO3 average at .08...after the change the average is PO3 average .025. I started to think that this was the cause. I ruled out Nitrate as it has always been 0 for the life of the tank. So, I decided I would take down the GFO to 60g and see how things look after a week. I'm two days in and reading/watching a lot about nutrients. And I'm starting to think that I missed something crucial. I need nutrients. Not just PO3, but Nitrate as well. 0 NO3 for the life of the tank is hindering my progress. In the short term I want to allow phosphate to rise a little to see if this was the cause of the monti losing its color. However, even though I haven't recognized any issues with my 0 nitrate, this too is probably hindering my progress and perhaps I should aim to increase it? My question to the community is, do you agree? Should I attempt to raise my PO3 and NO3 to detectible levels for the long term health of my tank? Do any of you run 0 PO3 and NO3? Second question is, how should I do this? Take GFO offline entirely? Ween it down? Cut my marine pure block in half and take half of it out of the sump to raise my nitrates? Use the skimmer half of the time? Any ideas/recommendations are greatly appreciated. Some tank specs below. I will post a pic.
IMG_7594.JPG
IMG_7595.JPG


Tank: Reefer 350 (91 total gallons)
Lighting: Kessil AP700
Eschopps Skimmer rated for 200 gal
1 large marine pure block
GFO/Carbon reactor (60g GFO - rowaphos)
1 yellow tang
2 clowns
1 bi color blenny
1 Black Cap Basslett
1 Dwarf Angel
 

KMench

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You could add fish! Add more bio load :D Otherwise I only run my skimmer overnight. Don’t use GFO either, and my nitrates / phosphates are still very very low. I feed heavily too. My corals have decent color and seem happy. I’m sure there are a million ways to skin a cat for this problem. ;Smuggrin
 
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Cire

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You could add fish! Add more bio load :D Otherwise I only run my skimmer overnight. Don’t use GFO either, and my nitrates / phosphates are still very very low. I feed heavily too. My corals have decent color and seem happy. I’m sure there are a million ways to skin a cat for this problem. ;Smuggrin

Thanks for the reply. When you say your nitrates and phosphates are very very low, what exactly are they at? If I suddenly took my GFO offline or shut the skimmer down for a day, is that going to be a negative shock to the system? I’ve always heard that things happen slowly in this hobby. Nothing good happens quickly.
 

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Definitely disengage/remove all "extra" nutrient removal.....no carbon dosing, no bio-blocks, no GFO, etc, etc.

If things are going "slow" with the tank, or even "poorly" in some ways, then keeping the media online is not "acting hasty" it's reacting in accord with the tank. :) (It may have been hasty to pile on all that extra nutrient removal, so you're kinda reversing that motion.)

Then see what happens for a few weeks. This is where you can feel good about taking your time!!

(You'll like this thread: Is "Going Slow" The Most Controversial Reefing Topic?)

If you think more "immediate" action is required than just eliminating the excess removal (say your corals appear to be bleaching), then alternately (or in addition), pick up some NO3 and PO4 fertilizers and use as directed. (Usually targeting something like 0.05-0.10 ppm PO4 and 5-10 ppm NO3.)

In general, and based on your comments in specific, a little extra NO3 and PO4 in the water is probably going to be helpful to the tank's ecosystem. The worst that can happen is that more algae will grow. "Sorry for the extra food Mr Tang and CUC!" :D You could need more CUC, but don't be too quick to judge. Remember: Algae is not a bad thing....it feeds your herbivores AND shows you where you need to add coral.

I wouldn't make any feeding changes unless you currently think you're over- or under-feeding, in which case take care of it. ;)

I do recommend an auto-feeder for at least part of your feeding regime so you can spread feedings out all day, even through the parts of the day when you're not around. (Don't use it to feed more, at least not at first....just to spread out the feedings.)
 
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Cire

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Definitely disengage/remove all "extra" nutrient removal.....no carbon dosing, no bio-blocks, no GFO, etc, etc.

If things are going "slow" with the tank, or even "poorly" in some ways, then keeping the media online is not "acting hasty" it's reacting in accord with the tank. :) (It may have been hasty to pile on all that extra nutrient removal, so you're kinda reversing that motion.)

Then see what happens for a few weeks. This is where you can feel good about taking your time!!

(You'll like this thread: Is "Going Slow" The Most Controversial Reefing Topic?)

If you think more "immediate" action is required than just eliminating the excess removal (say your corals appear to be bleaching), then alternately (or in addition), pick up some NO3 and PO4 fertilizers and use as directed. (Usually targeting something like 0.05-0.10 ppm PO4 and 5-10 ppm NO3.)

In general, and based on your comments in specific, a little extra NO3 and PO4 in the water is probably going to be helpful to the tank's ecosystem. The worst that can happen is that more algae will grow. "Sorry for the extra food Mr Tang and CUC!" :D You could need more CUC, but don't be too quick to judge. Remember: Algae is not a bad thing....it feeds your herbivores AND shows you where you need to add coral.

I wouldn't make any feeding changes unless you currently think you're over- or under-feeding, in which case take care of it. ;)

I do recommend an auto-feeder for at least part of your feeding regime so you can spread feedings out all day, even through the parts of the day when you're not around. (Don't use it to feed more, at least not at first....just to spread out the feedings.)

Thank you for the reply. Seems the consensus is to take the Gfo offline. You state that the worse that can happen is algae (which seems the bane of so many people’s existence). I parked down the Gfo usage because I’ve used it since day one and for the better part of a year (until I added more) the tank was thriving (including the monti growing and coloring very well). I thought that paring the Gfo back down would be more responsible than taking it away in its entirety. Please tell me why you disagree? Taking it away entirely seems counterintuitive when I’ve heard so many say that nothing good happens quickly in the hobby. In addition, it seems to be recommended that I take the marine pure block out too. That seems like a huge loss in nitrifying bacteria overnight. Another thing that seems rash. If I were to do both of these things I’d be left with my protein skimmer as my only filter. That’s great as it simplifies things however I can’t recall how many people on these forums just use a skimmer and nothing else? If I take Gfo and marine pure offline entirely, and then be patient, the worse that will happen is really algae? I can’t shock the system with spikes in PO3 and NO3? Thank you for your ideas and help.
 

rob safron

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Your phosphate at .02 is good, that’s a good level. Nitrates could be higher. My tank stays at phosphate .01-.02 and Nitrate at 5. I agree, get some fish in there and feed them well. You won’t need to make any other changes.
 

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thinking it must be the flow or lighting

I think I missed this point earlier.

Flow
Are you doing all the flow from just one pump?

Looks like that pump is flogging the stink out of the sand bed on the far side of the tank while it tries to flow the whole tank all by itself. That's usually too much of a task for a single pump, regardless of which pump.

Even if that setup is not a problem now (which it could be), it's not going to be a long term solution.

Light
Do you have any light meter readings (lux, PAR or otherwise) to show what the variation in coverage is across the top of the tank?

It's really hard to judge things like this from a photo, but it looks like you have a ton of light in the middle section of tank, and the ends look virtually un-lit by comparison.

How high is your light off the tank, and do you know what optics you're using? (e.g. 90º)

If it has the ultra-wide 140º optics, then a lower mounting could be very favorable.

If I take Gfo and marine pure offline entirely, and then be patient, the worse that will happen is really algae? I can’t shock the system with spikes in PO3 and NO3? Thank you for your ideas and help.

We're all in a position where we have to defer to you since you're there with the tank. :)

But assuming you're right in your analysis of the tank, and that you think it's related to nutrients then what is the goal?

Making nutrients more available.

Taking GFO and bio-media offline will do that – and as you rightly state, also simplifies your setup. The only question is whether it will be enough in the short term.

I'm not sure how anyone could quantify taking those things offline as "shocking" as there's no known harm to corals from having a little more NO3 or PO4 in the water.....they are nutrients after all, not toxins. :) :) :)

If you're into reading, check out some of the articles saved under the Coral section on my blog. Nutrients really have been demonized and the nature of real "low nutrient environments" misunderstood.....lots of great research out there on this hot topic. :)

[...]however I can’t recall how many people on these forums just use a skimmer and nothing else?

Lots of folks!! :)

Some folks (besides me) who use very minimal setups here should respond, but lets attract attention to this particular point: #reefsquad

I would simply point at the "Berlin Method" and drop the mike, but that's too easy and not very social. :p

But you should read about it. If there is an ecological "foundation method" of the hobby as we know it – the Berlin Method is it. In a nutshell, live rock + skimming is the core. Live rock brings the eco-system. Skimming brings the aeration and a degree of nutrient removal capability.
 
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I think I missed this point earlier.

Flow
Are you doing all the flow from just one pump?

Looks like that pump is flogging the stink out of the sand bed on the far side of the tank while it tries to flow the whole tank all by itself. That's usually too much of a task for a single pump, regardless of which pump.

Even if that setup is not a problem now (which it could be), it's not going to be a long term solution.

Light
Do you have any light meter readings (lux, PAR or otherwise) to show what the variation in coverage is across the top of the tank?

It's really hard to judge things like this from a photo, but it looks like you have a ton of light in the middle section of tank, and the ends look virtually un-lit by comparison.

How high is your light off the tank, and do you know what optics you're using? (e.g. 90º)

If it has the ultra-wide 140º optics, then a lower mounting could be very favorable.



We're all in a position where we have to defer to you since you're there with the tank. :)

But assuming you're right in your analysis of the tank, and that you think it's related to nutrients then what is the goal?

Making nutrients more available.

Taking GFO and bio-media offline will do that – and as you rightly state, also simplifies your setup. The only question is whether it will be enough in the short term.

I'm not sure how anyone could quantify taking those things offline as "shocking" as there's no known harm to corals from having a little more NO3 or PO4 in the water.....they are nutrients after all, not toxins. :) :) :)

If you're into reading, check out some of the articles saved under the Coral section on my blog. Nutrients really have been demonized and the nature of real "low nutrient environments" misunderstood.....lots of great research out there on this hot topic. :)



Lots of folks!! :)

Some folks (besides me) who use very minimal setups here should respond, but lets attract attention to this particular point: #reefsquad

I would simply point at the "Berlin Method" and drop the mike, but that's too easy and not very social. :p

But you should read about it. If there is an ecological "foundation method" of the hobby as we know it – the Berlin Method is it. In a nutshell, live rock + skimming is the core. Live rock brings the eco-system. Skimming brings the aeration and a degree of nutrient removal capability.

Thanks for your clear and thoughtful reply. It’s really cool to get viewpoints to ponder.

Yes, just an MP40 at the right side of the tank. The recession of the sandbed on the left is intentional. I prefer the aesthetics of it. I will say that your comment about the gravel stink at that end is spot on. That’s the end that turns brown quite quickly and although I’m diligent with my water changes there is always a ton of detritus accumulating there. Are tank nutrients being trapped there? And therefore unavailable? I assume you’d recommend an additional pump for alternation?

I’ve metered the lighting. The kessil sits at 8” above the water and the par I can achieve at the center of the tank is more than enough for sps (which is where I plan to place a few pieces). The darker areas at the edges are acceptable for just about everything else. It’s a very powerful light and I feel comfortable with using it. When I get more sps (other than the one monti I have) I believe I know how to dial the intensity in based on my readings. I don’t believe it’s the current issue as the lighting schedule has not changed in 15 months since the tank has been up and running and mostly thriving.

Love your comments on nutrients not being “toxins”. Perhaps I should take the Gfo offline entirely rather than gradually pare down the amount I use (from 90g to 60g was my short term remedy this past week - this knowing that when I originally used 29g the tank was responding very well). Seems like the logical choice is to actually go back to 29g (known commodity) now or take it offline entirely. Tempted to go down to 29g.

The Berlin method. The closest reef shop to me (which is a considerable distance away still) is an absolute stunner. The owner has been reefing for the better part of 40 years and He keeps it simple. He doesn’t test PO3 or NO3. Doesn’t run anything but some filter socks and a skimmer. Period. His tanks are otherworldly. I’ve said to myself all along that it’s easy for him to do it this way. He’s dealing with very mature systems now. Not to mention 30+ years of seeing healthy/unhealthy tanks. He can probably read a tank like a book and see problems before they start. Not so easy for a 2nd year.

If simple is the answer...and I have no reason to believe it’s not. Then why all the conversation about every other topic? Why carbon dosing or zeovit or triton or fuges or anything else? Just the nature of the hobby? Inquisitive striving people permeate the hobby? Wouldn’t everyone want simplicity if it were proven? It cheaper, less time consuming and more failsafe. What’s not to like?

Thanks for your comments. Really thought provoking. Happy Holidays.
 

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I would look more at your dKH, Ca, and Mg parameters. If you have crazy spikes that can turn a coral quickly. The mix on NO3 and PO4 is important as well, but keeping a steady supply of each without dips and spikes makes a reef healthier. I would chart out each one for like 2 weeks and see if your main three stay steady or jump around because of water changes on consumption from corals. Then you may be seeing the culprit clearly. I’ve notice since adding a doser and using the RedSea recipe for mixed reef has keep my corals bright eye and bushy tale. Even just dosing 2 part worked, but not until I had a steady input of supplements did my reef start to thrive. I use to not even dose and just have alright looking coral, but I know now that keeping a steady dKH,Ca andMg level rather than all over the charts did something start my growth and color pop.
 

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Then why all the conversation about every other topic?

Good question. ;)

I think that even methods that really actually work have their limits.

Where people run into limits it seems natural or at least inevitable for us to try and push those limits – for better or worse.

Is that at least a partial answer? :)
 

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Not so easy for a 2nd year.

+1

What's easy for a 2nd year (if not easy per se) is having patience. :p

Moving slowly through all the stages of building and stocking your tank and closely observing every change you can that the tank goes through. That takes a lot of time! :) Moving slowly makes your changes to the tank more discreet, which makes the results of those changes a bit easier to see and understand in most cases.

Proceeding this way you may not have your tank fully stocked the first or even second year. Think of how much time that affords you to watch and learn along the way! :) :) :)

You'll be an honest-to-goodness expert by the time your done stocking....exactly what your animals deserve for their long future with you.
 
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I would look more at your dKH, Ca, and Mg parameters. If you have crazy spikes that can turn a coral quickly. The mix on NO3 and PO4 is important as well, but keeping a steady supply of each without dips and spikes makes a reef healthier. I would chart out each one for like 2 weeks and see if your main three stay steady or jump around because of water changes on consumption from corals. Then you may be seeing the culprit clearly. I’ve notice since adding a doser and using the RedSea recipe for mixed reef has keep my corals bright eye and bushy tale. Even just dosing 2 part worked, but not until I had a steady input of supplements did my reef start to thrive. I use to not even dose and just have alright looking coral, but I know now that keeping a steady dKH,Ca andMg level rather than all over the charts did something start my growth and color pop.

Thanks for your post. I’m a religious tester. Those particular parameters have been rock solid without any spikes since I started. All are within healthy parameters. So I ruled that out as the cause of my recent issue. Thank you for brining it up.
 

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I had zero NO3 and PO4 also. I took out my skimmer and upped the CUC. I prefer to remove nutrient export instead of increasing nutrient import. The less tasks and equipment I have to do/use is better for me. You could shorten skim time, trim your macros or reduce water change frequency as well.
 
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+1

What's easy for a 2nd year (if not easy per se) is having patience. :p

Moving slowly through all the stages of building and stocking your tank and closely observing every change you can that the tank goes through. That takes a lot of time! :) Moving slowly makes your changes to the tank more discreet, which makes the results of those changes a bit easier to see and understand in most cases.

Proceeding this way you may not have your tank fully stocked the first or even second year. Think of how much time that affords you to watch and learn along the way! :) :) :)

You'll be an honest-to-goodness expert by the time your done stocking....exactly what your animals deserve for their long future with you.

This is exactly how I’ve proceeded so thank you for the affirmation. I’ve seen so many “tank builds” online in which people populate so quickly (with both fish and corals). I’ve not done that. I have loved every aspect of this slow build. I’m as mesmerized by my relatively “empty” tank today as I was when I first developed the aquascape. I am all good with going slow. I suppose that’s why my most recent issue is such a surprise and the I’m weighing very heavily how to proceed because I don’t want to start acting rash now. Your advice is worthy of attention. Thank you for taking the time and energy to engage with me on this.
 
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I had zero NO3 and PO4 also. I took out my skimmer and upped the CUC. I prefer to remove nutrient export instead of increasing nutrient import. The less tasks and equipment I have to do/use is better for me. You could shorten skim time, trim your macros or reduce water change frequency as well.

Thanks for your reply. Curious, what is your primary source of nutrient export now that you no longer use a skimmer? What are your NO3 and PO3 levels at now? Do you have algae issues?
 

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Hello Cire, I have very close to Your issues. No PO4& NO3 . Corals were looking blaaa ,yet still plenty of hair algae. I started dosing Po4&No3 just enough to show up on my tests . The corals a coloring up & looking better. I was afraid of an algae bloom. So I added a "lot " of snails. So far no major algae outbreak. Just closely watching the no3,po4 levels. Mcarol helped me also. In my op algae is not as bad as watching my corals slowly slip away.
 

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Thanks for your reply. Curious, what is your primary source of nutrient export now that you no longer use a skimmer? What are your NO3 and PO3 levels at now? Do you have algae issues?
Yesterday, NO3 and PO4 were 2.5 and 0.03, respectively. Refugium with Chaetomorpha is the only nutrient export now. It was dying when I was skimming. I do have sparse patches of hair algae, but my CUC keeps it in check. I don't mind a little algae in my display. My first tank I set up was skimmerless and the growth and color I saw was great.
 
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Hello Cire, I have very close to Your issues. No PO4& NO3 . Corals were looking blaaa ,yet still plenty of hair algae. I started dosing Po4&No3 just enough to show up on my tests . The corals a coloring up & looking better. I was afraid of an algae bloom. So I added a "lot " of snails. So far no major algae outbreak. Just closely watching the no3,po4 levels. Mcarol helped me also. In my op algae is not as bad as watching my corals slowly slip away.

Agree. Coral health is much more important than algae avoidance. Now that I realize that allowing nutrients to rise isn’t a “shock” to my system, I’ve taken Gfo offline. I will monitor for the next week for visible changes. Feel like this is the first time I’ll see what my tank’s natural level is...which seems to me to be the most logical starting point. Even if I’m doing it 15 months after I started the tank. Considering taking out the marine pure block to see what nitrates do too.
 
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Yesterday, NO3 and PO4 were 2.5 and 0.03, respectively. Refugium with Chaetomorpha is the only nutrient export now. It was dying when I was skimming. I do have sparse patches of hair algae, but my CUC keeps it in check. I don't mind a little algae in my display. My first tank I set up was skimmerless and the growth and color I saw was great.

And this first skimerless tank was using a fuge as its main nutrient export as well?
 
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