Help on strategy to RAISE phosphates and nitrates

[Cire]

Thanks for the advice. I’ve been thinking about the NO3 and PO4 relationship more. Got me thinking about sources. Which went to feeding. So I started to think about how to effectively manipulate both with feeding. Please let me know if this makes sense. Eaten food turns into NO3. Uneaten food dissolved into the water column and will increase PO4. Use lots of sinking pellets whereby a good % hit the sand bed uneaten. This is for PO4. Then feed the fish until fat with mysis/frozen choices, flake, whatever they will readily eat. This will increase NO3. Use Nori for a combo of both (eaten and dissolved). Also since being gone for 5 days and noticing no change in my 0 PO4, I’ve turned off the skimmer for the night after a feeding matching as I’ve just described. It now sinks in (I think) that my corals need the nutrients sooner rather than later and my fish won’t react adversely. Therefore why not turn it off to jump start my nutrient accumulation. Thanks to anyone who can double check my thinking and tell me if I’m finally getting it or if I’m off base. I guess, ultimately however, only my results can confirm this. Here’s to hoping.

 

[mcarroll]

Please let me know if this makes sense. Eaten food

Unfortunately, the connections between food and dissolved nutrients and nitrate and phosphate levels aren't that simple.

• Food = "all nutrients"
• Dissolved nutrients = composite of soluble nutrients that have not been utilized yet (detritus = the non-soluble portions; also valuable as a nutrient and alkalinity source)
• Nitrates and phosphates are artificially lowered relative to other dissolved nutrients.

Since N and P have been specifically lowered by the filtration/media you were using, N and P are out of balance with normal. (i.e. levels dictated by food and its normal consumption and conservation by the system.)

Adding more food (all nutrients) doesn't undo the N/P imbalance caused by the excessive filtration/media, no matter which food you utilize. (Unless you're only considering the long term where "it all works out". )

If you're interested in curing a short-term problem (i.e. where the health of an animal is suffering; not just to chase a number) then application of an appropriate dissolved nutrient source/fertilizer is definitely preferable.

 

[Charterreefer]

Since you have removed the NO3 and PO4 reducers in your system keep measuring those levels daily or every 2 days in order to get a handle on what they settle in at. Each tank has its own unique ratio of NO3 to PO4 based on the different strains of bacteria present. Figuring out what the required amount of dosing will be (for your own particular system) will take a bit of time and work to calculate what is needed to keep it at the desired levels. In my experience I have found that adding nutrients by dosing is easier to control than through feeding (overfeeding) your fish. This is a more proactive way to get consistent results.
If I may add, once your system settles in with the slightly higher nutrients you will probably need increased water movement as algae will start to grow, along with your coral. Keeping detritus off the rocks will be more important so as to keep algae from getting any kind of a foothold. Increasing the size of your cuc is something you might want to consider too.

 

[Reef Jeff]

Great advice from both mcarroll and charterreefer. Charterreefer explained what I was trying to say much better than I did. His comment about water movement and algae control once nutrient level is at the desired levels is especially important.

 

[Cire]

Since you have removed the NO3 and PO4 reducers in your system keep measuring those levels daily or every 2 days in order to get a handle on what they settle in at. Each tank has its own unique ratio of NO3 to PO4 based on the different strains of bacteria present. Figuring out what the required amount of dosing will be (for your own particular system) will take a bit of time and work to calculate what is needed to keep it at the desired levels. In my experience I have found that adding nutrients by dosing is easier to control than through feeding (overfeeding) your fish. This is a more proactive way to get consistent results.
If I may add, once your system settles in with the slightly higher nutrients you will probably need increased water movement as algae will start to grow, along with your coral. Keeping detritus off the rocks will be more important so as to keep algae from getting any kind of a foothold. Increasing the size of your cuc is something you might want to consider too.

Thanks for the replies to all. I was heading back from NYC yesterday so thought I would call a couple LFS in both Manhattan and Jersey to see if they had a PO4 fertilizer (as has been mentioned). Both places acted as if I was nuts for asking. Needless to say, they didn’t carry any. They both told me “feed more”.

I’ll order something online. Is there a specific product you’d recommend?

 

[Charterreefer]

Thanks for the replies to all. I was heading back from NYC yesterday so thought I would call a couple LFS in both Manhattan and Jersey to see if they had a PO4 fertilizer (as has been mentioned). Both places acted as if I was nuts for asking. Needless to say, they didn’t carry any. They both told me “feed more”.
I’ll order something online. Is there a specific product you’d recommend?

I use Seachem Flourish Phosphorus (order from Marine depot or BRS). It has well written instructions on the bottle.
For NO3 I use Calcium Nitrate http://greenleafaquariums.com/aquarium-fertilizer.html . They also have potassium nitrate as well.

So, nobody seems to know about nutrient dosing....that's not surprising. Nutrient dosing is more of a cutting edge technique and many people don't possess that paradigm (yet). That's what this site is all about!! Collectively we can develop new, safe and simple techniques.
Another thought. When you do start dosing - test it on one gallon of DI water to measure the actual level (NO3 and PO4) to double check you math. A second reason this is important is that when you dose your actual system the coral and microfauna can take it up at a surprising fast rate, especially at first. You'll take a reading of your (dosed) system and think it's not working! (Since it doesn't look like you have that much livestock this might not be an issue.) I've had other friends do just that, they take a system reading after dosing, get a lower number then they calculated for and start to dose more, then "all of a sudden" they have high levels! Slow and steady. Take good notes while doing this. These kinds of techniques help you "see" what is happening and help you in becoming a seasoned reefer. Once your coral start growing and you add more coral livestock the nutrient demand will be changing at albeit a faster rate...it's always changing! Try to be patient and minimize changing variables i.e carbon, GFO, nitrate blocks. You'll never know what is actually happening. Test each day at this point to get a good handle on it. Once you get the sweet spot things will fall into place. Good luck. keep us posted.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for the replies to all. I was heading back from NYC yesterday so thought I would call a couple LFS in both Manhattan and Jersey to see if they had a PO4 fertilizer (as has been mentioned). Both places acted as if I was nuts for asking. Needless to say, they didn’t carry any. They both told me “feed more”.

I’ll order something online. Is there a specific product you’d recommend?

They are just uninformed. Brightwell Neophos, for example, but I'd just buy food grade DIY products.

For example:

https://www.loudwolf.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=197

https://www.amazon.com/Potassium-Phosphate-Monobasic-Crystals-Space-Saver/dp/B00WSDILWQ

https://www.amazon.com/Disodium-Phosphate-FOOD-GRADE-Purity/dp/B013TQVSVQ

 

[Cire]

Thanks all for the suggestions. I’m reading about brightwell’s Neophos now. The directions state that after dosing if no change is detectable then the system is “carbon limited”. They then recommend to dose Reef Biofuel (which seems like carbon dosing). I think I’m going down the rabbit hole here. Any thoughts here? Thanks.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks all for the suggestions. I’m reading about brightwell’s Neophos now. The directions state that after dosing if no change is detectable then the system is “carbon limited”. They then recommend to dose Reef Biofuel (which seems like carbon dosing). I think I’m going down the rabbit hole here. Any thoughts here? Thanks.

They mean if the levels do not drop after you boost them, not that they do not rise because of the dosing.

"Allow 24-hours to elapse; re-test nitrate and phosphate concentrations. If concentrations remain unchanged, then the system is likely carbon-limited."

 

[Cire]

They mean if the levels do not drop after you boost them, not that they do not rise because of the dosing.

"Allow 24-hours to elapse; re-test nitrate and phosphate concentrations. If concentrations remain unchanged, then the system is likely carbon-limited."

Thank you for that clarification.

 

[Reef Jeff]

Yeah, like Randy said, all you are doing is using the Neophos to get the PO4 level up. Frankly, it will go up on its own without the Neophos, but using this is a way to get it to target right away. Once it is where you want it (detectable), then the trick is keeping it controlled at the target level, whatever you choose that to be.

Speaking of the rabbit hole...if you are interested, carbon dosing isn't much of a mystery. Get a good low resolution test kit for both N03 and Po4. Test your tank and see if your levels are above or below the target you want to maintain. Use Neophos or other KH2PO4 product to boost PO4 if below target. Use NaNO3, KNO3 or Ca[NO3]2 to boost your NO3 if below target. Once both N and P are at target levels or above, start carbon dosing very small amounts of the carbon source you chose and test often until you find the amount of carbon dose that keeps the N and P levels where you want them. Maintain that level long term by small daily dose of carbon source and regular testing of N and P. If you increase or decrease bioload, retest and adjust. Don't stop carbon dosing if you go this route as it will cause the bacteria responsible for N and P reduction to die off and will take you back to the original problem of higher than optimal N and P. I know this sounds like a pain, but it is really simple once you find the sweet spot. No more reactors, GFO, nitrate removers, etc. In the end it is less work and in my opinion works better. One last thing...NO3 reduces faster than PO4 when carbon dosing. The bacteria responsible for converting Nitrate grows quicker and converts the NO3 more efficiently than the bacteria that reduces PO4. If your problem is high PO4, you may find carbon dosing keeps dropping your NO3 to zero while you are trying to get your PO4 under control. In that case just keep dosing low amounts of carbon and boost NO3 with a booster to keep that at target while you wait however many weeks it takes to build up the PO4 reducing bacteria and start seeing a reduction in PO4. Keep skimmer running wet during this time until you get everything in balance.

 

[Cire]

Ordered the brightwell product. Will dose as soon as it arrives.

I was logging all that had occurred since the phosphate drop due to my stripping the tank. Monti lost all color. Small chalice frag lost color. Hammer has lost a couple heads. One of my BTA went for a walk under shade the other day. These haven’t moved from their solitary rock forever. Got me wondering. Does light “feel” more intense to corals/inverts in a zero po4 environment?

 

[Charterreefer]

Absolutely, low light and corals will grow slowly and require less energy and won't need as many nutrients. Higher light and corals grow faster requiring more energy and more nutrients.

 

[mcarroll]

You might find these interesting too...both speak some about light and phosphorus:
Limited phosphorus availability is the Achilles heel of tropical reef corals in a warming ocean
and
The response of the scleractinian coral Turbinaria reniformis to thermal stress depends on the nitrogen status of the coral holobiont

 

[Reef Jeff]

The zooxanthellae (algae) within the coral and anemone's tissue needs nutrients including phosphate and nitrate to survive. When you strip one or both from the water column the algae becomes limited and starts to die both on the rocks and in the coral. When that happens it looses that part of its natural sunscreen (bleaching). Too much nitrate and phosphate and the zooxanthellae grows too much and causes the coral to turn brown. Just the right amount at low levels allows the zooxanthellae to grow in balance and allows the coral to develop its natural bright and colorful pigments in conjunction with its zooxanthellae. Those colorful pigments also serve as a sunscreen.

 

[Cire]

Jeff,Carroll and Chart, thanks for the replies. My PO4 fertilizer will be here tomorrow. Given what you’ve all said, I’m considering just leaving moonlights on over the tank for the next 24 hours in hopes of relieving stress until I can dose. I know raising light intensity can cause all sorts of problems, but I’m assuming lowering intensity in the short term won’t. Any comments on if this is a good strategy or would keep it all status quo until tomorrow when I can dose? Thank you.

 

[Reef Jeff]

Jeff,Carroll and Chart, thanks for the replies. My PO4 fertilizer will be here tomorrow. Given what you’ve all said, I’m considering just leaving moonlights on over the tank for the next 24 hours in hopes of relieving stress until I can dose. I know raising light intensity can cause all sorts of problems, but I’m assuming lowering intensity in the short term won’t. Any comments on if this is a good strategy or would keep it all status quo until tomorrow when I can dose? Thank you.

It won't make a difference. Your PO4 is most likely starting to increase on its own already. Just be careful dosing the phosphate booster. Take it slow and stop as soon as PO4 is at your target level. If you are not sure what level to target, just stop when a test kit detects it. Retest daily for a little while to be sure it is staying at a detectable level. Like I said, I shoot for 1 ppm NO3 and .08 ppm PO4. Opinions vary...that's what works for me. If it starts rising, consider carbon dosing and if you do that start conservative.

Charterreefer had a good suggestion about dosing back in post 46...you may want to re-read his suggestion.

Let us know how you make out...hoping for a quick recovery for your corals and BTA.

 

[Charterreefer]

You could but on the other hand, I would try to minimize variables. It is another stressor for your coral to deal with. They have been exposed to a specific intensity for what sounds like a while. Why change it now since you are going to start increasing the nutrients? Just my input. It's very easy to be reactive in this hobby and is probably most responsible for tank crashes. Sitting on your hands is sometimes difficult.

 

[Charterreefer]

When I was in my geology class I learned the concept of thinking in geologic time. It was a major concept to wrap my head around. It was a major temporal shift in the perception of time. This is similar in our hobby as well. Everything in a reef tank is delayed. What you do to your system (parameter changes/variables) today might not reveal itself for a week a month, etc. Understanding this concept will make most of us better reefers. When you start dosing, test every day, maybe even morning and evening. This will provide valuable data for you to look back on, to see rates of change for your own Unique tank...cause and effect. You have a perfect opportunity to "see" what's going on in your system. You will also get a good idea of how things change in relation to time. And, it is different for each system. Hope that didn't sound preachy lol.

 

[mcarroll]

I’m considering just leaving moonlights on over the tank for the next 24 hours

It always pays to ask yourself what in nature you are modeling.

What you're talking about is nothing more than a dark stormy day. No problem. But I wouldn't push it.

You could also opt for just significantly dimming the lights for a day or even just running a shorter photo-period of like 2-4 hours.