Help TDS through the roof and so is my DI resin budget!

Bradley Keck · Sep 18, 2018

Just for good measure, I did switch the probes to make sure that one was not working correctly, and indeed they were consistent, so it does not appear to be the TDS meter.

Bradley Keck · Sep 18, 2018

Bradley Keck · Sep 18, 2018

Here are some pics! I'm getting good at downloading pics at least so I can get my build thread started once I get this fixed! I took a pic of the extra auto shut off that came with the kit. Not sure if it is different somehow? I also put the manual shut off on and took a pic of it. To make sure I have this right, when I am done making water, I literally do not turn off anything but this manual shut-off that is after the membrane and before line 1/DI stage correct?

TMB · Sep 18, 2018

Man you did a great job on pics! You're correct on the manual shut off valve, and how to use it.
I'll look over the pics to see if I can spot any issues. But for now I will explain (as best I can, I'm not an RO expert) the process for determining if the membrane is working as it should be.

First is you need to be 100% sure there are no issues with the sealing/seating of the membrane. look closely at the outer seal and the 2 o-rings on the end for splits, creases, cuts, or other obvious signs of a leak.
Inspect the housing and cap for cracks - leaks.
You also need to make sure it is fully seated in the housing when you put it back together. don't be afraid to push on the membrane to be sure you feel it go in past 2 o- rings.
Next you would do a pressure drop test on the sediment and carbon filters. But if the pressure on the membrane side matches the house pressure you should be good.
Then you test the Ratio of product to waste (something you're good at now)
If the ratio is correct you can move on, if not you must correct the ratio to 3:1 or 4:1 by replacing with a new restrictor that measures in this range.
Once the ratio is correct you can move on to testing the output of the membrane, to see if it produces what it should as far as product volume.
This is a fairly complicated test because of pressures and temperatures, but for the most part you want to know if your membrane puts out 75 GPD at 50 PSI, and 60 degrees water temp (I think). So... 75 GPD = 197.15 milliliters per minute of product water.
Next you would move on to rejection rate and test the incoming TDS, outgoing TDS, and calculate (in TDS - out TDS) / in TDS = rejection rate of the membrane.
Somewhere in this process you should discover the problem. like if you restrict the membrane to the proper ratio and flow goes to crap, the membrane is bad, or several other possible outcomes.

Any and all water experts are welcome to correct me anywhere I'm wrong. I'm just trying to help a fellow reefer fix his problem.

I know this is frustrating for you Brad, but think of how much you'll know about this system when you're done!!

TMB

TMB · Sep 18, 2018

The lines and plumbing all look good, I don't see anything wrong there. The auto shut off valve should be the same as the one that's in there. You could swap it, or eliminate it while testing if you want to rule it out.

Bradley Keck · Sep 18, 2018

TMB said:
The lines and plumbing all look good, I don't see anything wrong there. The auto shut off valve should be the same as the one that's in there. you could swap it, or eliminate it while testing if you want to rule it out.

Thanks Man, I REALLY appreciate it.

I was thinking, I may be somewhat of an expert myself when it's all said and done. I did check every line on this thing. Even the small parts around the pressure gage etc. I could blow air through every single one of them, but for good measure I swapped out the source water line, product water line to the container, and the waste water line. I will double check everything above regarding the membrane and see if I can find anything. THANK YOU!

TMB · Sep 18, 2018

Good luck, we're all pulling for you! And maybe someone else will gain something from your pain!

pwilliaml · Sep 18, 2018

Let's do a test where you take your auto shut off valve out, and just connect the red line to the red line, and the blue line to the blue line and check your ratio. This is only temporary. Without the auto shutoff valve, it will never stop running. Anyway, take it out and check your ratios. It is quite possible that running even the small number of gallons your ran through it before the new restrictor could have clogged the membrane. Like you said you made like 20 to 30 gallons of product and maybe a gallon of waste. That would almost guarantee a clogged membrane. Get another 75 GPD membrane off amazon and put it in there inspecting all the o-rings and such and run the test without the auto shut off valve again and see if you can get better waste to product ratio. I think ultimately it was a bad restrictor and you just ruined your membrane. Good luck and let us know how it works out.

Bradley Keck · Sep 19, 2018

pwilliaml said:
Let's do a test where you take your auto shut off valve out, and just connect the red line to the red line, and the blue line to the blue line and check your ratio. This is only temporary. Without the auto shutoff valve, it will never stop running. Anyway, take it out and check your ratios. It is quite possible that running even the small number of gallons your ran through it before the new restrictor could have clogged the membrane. Like you said you made like 20 to 30 gallons of product and maybe a gallon of waste. That would almost guarantee a clogged membrane. Get another 75 GPD membrane off amazon and put it in there inspecting all the o-rings and such and run the test without the auto shut off valve again and see if you can get better waste to product ratio. I think ultimately it was a bad restrictor and you just ruined your membrane. Good luck and let us know how it works out.

This would make sense to me. The other thing I thought is that I may have loosened the large o-ring near the top of the membrane when I took it out of the old housing. It seemed intact when I put it in the new one, but the o-ring looked slightly crooked and it is attached to the membrane and could not be straightened out. I will perform all of what you guys suggested and let you know the results. thank so much for your time. I cannot express enough how nice it is to know that other reefers are willing to spend so much of their personal time to help someone else out. You guys are great!

Bradley Keck · Sep 19, 2018

Bradley Keck · Sep 19, 2018

Well, maybe I have found the problem. I remembered when I installed the new membrane, before ever getting the new housing or regulator, it was a little crooked around the top. I didn't think anything of it until last night. I took these pics to show. The first one just shows that it was indeed seated all the way. The "look down" shot shows how the membrane is not centered, but off to one side. I don't know if this matters or not. Then two of the pics show the crooked gasket that is attached to the membrane. The other pic shows the other two O-rings and how they are fine, but there was a little tear in the blue film at the bottom. Not sure if that matters or not either. BRS has been awesome with this whole thing. I contacted them and they are sending out a replacement for the membrane and expediting the shipping so it gets here by the weekend. Hopefully this will take care of it!

TMB · Sep 19, 2018

Wow, that's an ugly looking outer seal! Not sure if it's the issue or not. Also, the membrane should go at least flush with the housing. Hard to tell from the picture, but will it push in more? The membrane should be hard to get in and out if it is seated all the way. Did you need pliers or something to grab it with? Or could you just pull it out by hand?

Since they are sending a new one lets hope that gets you going!

Bradley Keck · Sep 19, 2018

TMB said:
Wow, that's an ugly looking outer seal! Not sure if it's the issue or not. Also, the membrane should go at least flush with the housing. Hard to tell from the picture, but will it push in more? The membrane should be hard to get in and out if it is seated all the way. Did you need pliers or something to grab it with? Or could you just pull it out by hand?

Since they are sending a new one lets hope that gets you going!

I gently gave it all she's got captain! It would not go anymore. I'm getting Hulk-like muscles taking the housing cap on and off so much! I did have to use pliers to get that sucker out too. Had to use needle nose to get a good grasp on it to pull it out. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. My system has now had cured rock in it for 7 weeks, a toadstool leather, discosoma, and trumpet for 10 days, and 12 dwarf scarlet reef hermits for 10 days. My plan was to two weeks after adding the corals and CUC, then do a 20% water change, and as long s parameters are a go, add my first fish. Probably a bicolored blenny. If this takes care of it I will still be able to stay on schedule. If not, no big deal if I have to wait longer to add a fish. I will have to start feeding the hermits soon though as they have really cleared almost all the algae off the 118# of live rock I have. Since I have not been making RODI, I have stopped adding anything to the tank that could increase nitrate or phosphate. So, I hope this takes care of it!

pwilliaml · Sep 20, 2018

Wow that gasket is definitely not right! Sounds like that might be the source of your issues. That would allow a lot of water to leak by and increase your waste water amount. I always keep a spare membrane on hand in case I need a quick change out. Actually, I keep extras of all the filters and membrane and I even have an extra RO unit for parts, but I'm a giant nerd, so that happens with a lot of things. Once you get the new membrane in there, get it running and dump the product water, and after about 30 minutes or so check your waste / product water ratio and see if it is closer to 3 to 1, if not, definitely take out the auto shut off valve and check the ratio with it removed. We will get you fixed up, if it's the last thing I do! Oh yeah, I almost forgot, when those RO membranes are properly seated, you really have to push down on them hard to get both O-rings seated. It's a good idea to get them wet before you press them in, and always inspect all your seating surfaces for scratches or damages. Easy way to get your membrane out is to get a small screw driver and put the tip of it into that little hole at the end of the membrane and use the edge of the housing as a lever to pop the membrane out. Pliers always end up scratching things. If you can get it out by hand without prying, it probably wasn't seated right. Hope that helps!

Bradley Keck · Sep 20, 2018

pwilliaml said:
Wow that gasket is definitely not right! Sounds like that might be the source of your issues. That would allow a lot of water to leak by and increase your waste water amount. I always keep a spare membrane on hand in case I need a quick change out. Actually, I keep extras of all the filters and membrane and I even have an extra RO unit for parts, but I'm a giant nerd, so that happens with a lot of things. Once you get the new membrane in there, get it running and dump the product water, and after about 30 minutes or so check your waste / product water ratio and see if it is closer to 3 to 1, if not, definitely take out the auto shut off valve and check the ratio with it removed. We will get you fixed up, if it's the last thing I do! Oh yeah, I almost forgot, when those RO membranes are properly seated, you really have to push down on them hard to get both O-rings seated. It's a good idea to get them wet before you press them in, and always inspect all your seating surfaces for scratches or damages. Easy way to get your membrane out is to get a small screw driver and put the tip of it into that little hole at the end of the membrane and use the edge of the housing as a lever to pop the membrane out. Pliers always end up scratching things. If you can get it out by hand without prying, it probably wasn't seated right. Hope that helps!

Thank You! I think we are all nerds to some extent right? I'll let it run 30min. and I'm not even going to look at the TDS unitl after that. Once I check the TDS then I will go straight to measuring my ratio regardless of what the TDS read. Then, I will go from there. Should be here by Saturday, so I will have an update sometime Saturday or Sunday. Hoping this does the trick;Nailbiting

Bradley Keck · Sep 21, 2018

Bradley Keck · Sep 21, 2018

;Singing You will have to excuse me, but a bit of an emotional moment here.. It works!! Installed the new membrane, hooked it all up and let it run bypassing the di stage for 45 min. Checked my TDS and we are down from 122tds to 12. Actually just checked it and it's at 8. I cannot even begin to express my gratitude to everyone on this thread who have taken their own personal time and energy to help me figure this out and provide me with valuable information on how to properly care for and operate an RODI system. I also have to give a shout out to BRS who were absolutely great and had this membrane sent out in two days. They do stand by their products and did not hesitate to send a replacement housing and flow regulator. Time to make some water

TMB · Sep 21, 2018

Bradley Keck said:
;Singing You will have to excuse me, but a bit of an emotional moment here.. It works!! Installed the new membrane, hooked it all up and let it run bypassing the di stage for 45 min. Checked my TDS and we are down from 122tds to 12. Actually just checked it and it's at 8. I cannot even begin to express my gratitude to everyone on this thread who have taken their own personal time and energy to help me figure this out and provide me with valuable information on how to properly care for and operate an RODI system. I also have to give a shout out to BRS who were absolutely great and had this membrane sent out in two days. They do stand by their products and did not hesitate to send a replacement housing and flow regulator. Time to make some water

That’s awesome!!! Glad it worked out, and you’re finally making good water!
Oh, and one more thing, with a TDS of 8 your DI resin should really last a long time!! I can only get down to 17.

pwilliaml · Sep 24, 2018

Bradley, congrats on getting everything situated. Remember what you learned from this though, and whenever you change out your membrane in the future, it may be a good idea to do the restrictor as well since it doesn't cost much more. I wouldn't be surprised if your TDS goes even lower. I've gotten mine down to 4 with a new membrane, but I have a pump on mine that boosts pressure to 80 psig, so I'm kind of cheating. Enjoy the good water and good luck with your tank. Hopefully that's the hardest battle you have.

Bradley Keck · Sep 25, 2018

pwilliaml said:
Bradley, congrats on getting everything situated. Remember what you learned from this though, and whenever you change out your membrane in the future, it may be a good idea to do the restrictor as well since it doesn't cost much more. I wouldn't be surprised if your TDS goes even lower. I've gotten mine down to 4 with a new membrane, but I have a pump on mine that boosts pressure to 80 psig, so I'm kind of cheating. Enjoy the good water and good luck with your tank. Hopefully that's the hardest battle you have.

Thanks man! I definitely will make sure to never leave my flush valve open, never shut off the source water, and only close the manual shut-off to keep the system pressurized. I made 70 gallons of RODI this weekend and my DI resin hardly budged. My TDS was around 8-12. Thanks again for all your help and kind words. Cannot thank you enough!