High levels of TIN in my tank

[Dolphins18]

h

 

[Dolphins18]

Yes

Have you ever added h202 (hydrogen peroxide) to your tank?

 

[Dr. Jim]

Have you ever added h202 (hydrogen peroxide) to your tank?

No. Why are you asking that? In relation to tin?

For all of you with tin issues: If you have plastic tubing, I would highly recommend that you soak a piece in RO/DI and send it out for ICP testing as I did. I think you will be surprised. (Same with pvc pipe, but I found the plastic tubing to leach much more tin than pvc). Levels up to around 20 may not be detrimental, although not desirable of course. When tin is found on ICP, we don't know the molecular formulation of the tin and some are probably more toxic than others which makes it hard to put an exact number on what is "safe." Some sources say above 10 ug/l can be toxic.

 

[twf0369]

I'm now in the Tin Club. Tin levels came back at 39. SPS would do well for a few months then slowly suffer from RTN. SPS never had great polyp extension. I've been reading through this thread and want to thank everyone for sharing. I've learned a lot.

I found 4 nails that were hanging over top of my tank that were rusty. You could see they were wet from precipitation and dripping back into the tank. The nails have been pulled and the area is now sealed off with some acrylic. I don't know if this is the culprit based on no other metals have been detected.

I am doing 10-15% water changes and going to use Continuum HM for the next month to see how it goes. I'll post any updates here.

 

[Dr. Jim]

I'm now in the Tin Club. Tin levels came back at 39. SPS would do well for a few months then slowly suffer from RTN. SPS never had great polyp extension. I've been reading through this thread and want to thank everyone for sharing. I've learned a lot.

I found 4 nails that were hanging over top of my tank that were rusty. You could see they were wet from precipitation and dripping back into the tank. The nails have been pulled and the area is now sealed off with some acrylic. I don't know if this is the culprit based on no other metals have been detected.

I am doing 10-15% water changes and going to use Continuum HM for the next month to see how it goes. I'll post any updates here.

If the nails were the problem, other metals would be elevated on the ICP test. (Nails aren't made of just tin, if there is any tin at all).

I wrote about a test I performed with Continuum using a known "before" value and a value "after" treatment. There was not a statistically significant improvement. Cruder tests using other products (carbon, Cuprisorb, Metasorb, and Polyfilters) were also discouraging.

If you have plastic tubing in your plumbing, I would strongly suspect that. (See my lengthy thread that I started May 2020 on tin. You can probably just read the original post and the last page of posts to get the gist of it).

 

[twf0369]

If the nails were the problem, other metals would be elevated on the ICP test. (Nails aren't made of just tin, if there is any tin at all).

I wrote about a test I performed with Continuum using a known "before" value and a value "after" treatment. There was not a statistically significant improvement. Cruder tests using other products (carbon, Cuprisorb, Metasorb, and Polyfilters) were also discouraging.

If you have plastic tubing in your plumbing, I would strongly suspect that. (See my lengthy thread that I started May 2020 on tin. You can probably just read the original post and the last page of posts to get the gist of it).

Thank you for the heads up and information! Looking at my last test I guess I overlooked my aluminum levels since they're still in the "green" zone. Aluminum is at 6 too. So I have tin at 39 and aluminum at 6.

 

[Dr. Jim]

I think it is safe to say that the tin is not coming from the screws. (It is unlikely that tin would be used in the production of them). And the aluminum at 6 is nothing to worry about. (Aluminum is commonly found in ceramic media balls/products in case you are using those).

Do you have any plastic tubing (for return pumps or drains)? If not, other plastics would be the most likely culprits IME.
I found tin leaching from skimmers and pvc pipes, but not nearly as much as from plastic tubing.

 

[twf0369]

I think it is safe to say that the tin is not coming from the screws. (It is unlikely that tin would be used in the production of them). And the aluminum at 6 is nothing to worry about. (Aluminum is commonly found in ceramic media balls/products in case you are using those).

Do you have any plastic tubing (for return pumps or drains)? If not, other plastics would be the most likely culprits IME.
I found tin leaching from skimmers and pvc pipes, but not nearly as much as from plastic tubing.

Dr. Jim...thank you. I use schedule 80 pvc as the system is hard plumbed. I have tubing on my dosing pumps and a plastic tube for my water changes. Thinking about it now, the tubing I use to connect a pump in my brute trashcan to send my water change water back to the display is plastic. It came from my HVAC contractor which he uses for condensation lines. Even though it's only for a short period of time a few times per month I wonder if that could be the culprit?

Since we believe it's a plastic issue, would this ever go away on it's own?

 

[Dr. Jim]

Dr. Jim...thank you. I use schedule 80 pvc as the system is hard plumbed. I have tubing on my dosing pumps and a plastic tube for my water changes. Thinking about it now, the tubing I use to connect a pump in my brute trashcan to send my water change water back to the display is plastic. It came from my HVAC contractor which he uses for condensation lines. Even though it's only for a short period of time a few times per month I wonder if that could be the culprit?

Since we believe it's a plastic issue, would this ever go away on it's own?

If the culprit is the plastic, as far as I know, the tin is throughout the product, not just the lining. If that is true, then I would suspect that as the lining "wears" there will always be more tin to leach, but I have no way of knowing for sure it this is the case. I think the key would be to find where it is coming from. If it was me, I'd do a "soak test" on the plastic tubing in question (as I described in my "tin thread"). If the tubing you are describing is the common vinyl tubing like that which Lowes/H.D. sells, then I would be very suspicious.

 

[daelie]

@Dr. Jim
Did you find any plastic tubing that didn't leach, or at least leached very little tin into the water?

 

[Dr. Jim]

@Dr. Jim
Did you find any plastic tubing that didn't leach, or at least leached very little tin into the water?

After a limited amount of research and speaking with technicians that work with TYGON tubing, I concluded that TYGON2475 may be the most inert and "tin-free" plastic tubing. You can read about it here:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/t...-and-a-very-inert-tubing-that-i-found.793590/
I have been using this tubing for about 7 months now but have not yet performed an ICP test on it. (My SPS frags made an amazing "come-back" when I switched systems to a I.M. 100 EXT tank but I can't say it is because of the TYGON.)

 

[tastyfish]

these values is "ugl" for Tin?

That makes sense. Plasticisers and UV stabilisers are likely to be used at higher levels for flexible tubing And this concurs with my more anecdotal evidence of detecting tin in my system after adding a reactor with flexible tubing (although I can’t prove it was the tubing or the reactor which was the source, it occurred twice (With a UV install also)

 

[Minhaj Qazi]

Hi. Tin Club. Had 25ppm Tin in Triton icp. Searched all possible sources and found few including TIN Locks in RO Valves Tubing at my Ca Rx Effulent Line, a small Wave Maker with Tin Shaft rusty and Washers in RO Drum.
Used Metasorb which turned yellowish with a bit green tint (not specufied in charts) and Cuprisorb which remained colorless. After 14 days treatment changed a 50% water followed by another 50% next week to reduce Tin to around 7 ppm as i calculate. Here are few pics. And Also my latest vid

 

[ADAM]

Hi. Tin Club. Had 25ppm Tin in Triton icp. Searched all possible sources and found few including TIN Locks in RO Valves Tubing at my Ca Rx Effulent Line, a small Wave Maker with Tin Shaft rusty and Washers in RO Drum.
Used Metasorb which turned yellowish with a bit green tint (not specufied in charts) and Cuprisorb which remained colorless. After 14 days treatment changed a 50% water followed by another 50% next week to reduce Tin to around 7 ppm as i calculate. Here are few pics. And Also my latest vid

Based on Seachem info Cuprisorb is not proven to remove Tin, likely the Metazorb and water changes that removed it.
—————
From Seachem Website: Will CupriSorb™ effectively remove metals other than copper? I'm looking for a medium (preferably renewable) that will remove or at least significantly reduce all metals in my tap water.
It will also remove nickel, zinc, cobalt, cadmium, manganese. it may remove other heavy metals but we have no data for any others.
https://www.seachem.com/cuprisorb.php
—————
The green/yellow tint on the Metazorb is likely algae and/or bacteria film

With your findings in the RO drum, effluent connectors, and wave maker you likely have your culprit(s).

FWIW: Whenever I’ve had Tin show up on ICP tests I usually find a corroded shaft on one of the pumps.

 

[Minhaj Qazi]

Hi, Thx for info. Yes i Read all details. But its on reef2Reef here that reefers did observe removal of Tin using Cuprisorb as well (may be anecdotal). So Decided to Use Both brand Resins to do some Tin Export.

 

[wsoldier]

@Minhaj Qazi What were your results with those products for Tin removal? Been following along in this thread and others related to flexible tubing leaching. I unfortunately think I have everyone beat in terms of ATI ICP readings at almost 104 ug/l from near zero over the course of a month. My otherwise healthy hammers have deteriorated significantly while I also have some issues with some but not all acros (mainly poor color and PE).

I'm planning to swap out the tubing with BRS tubing and do a large water change, but given the high level I fear I won't be able to do enough to dilute the pollutants in a reasonable time frame.

 

[Tradevg]

Hello all. Truly appreciate the thoughtful exchange and helpful information in this thread. It is so helpful to those of us still learning.

I am trying to resolve some issues like snail deaths and the 3 PJ cardinals stopped eating with only 1 surviving (now in QT) over the last month. Granted this could be anything so got my water tested. I am hoping some of you can look at the below and see if I am overlooking anything or should be doing something differently.

Setup: New 27 gallon tank from LFS, marco rocks, ocean direct sand, new Schedule 80 fittings and flexible braided tubing from big box for the plumbing, canister filter (may eventually replace with sump) and regular water changes for filtration. Finnex titanium and a IM Helios PTC heater. Rinsed everything well before adding. 4 stage Aquaticlife RODI water filter being mixed in the grey Brute trashcans. I use Reef Crystals salt mix (which has extra Ca, Mg, etc.).

Livestock (from Liveaquaria and Diver's den) currently is 4 fish and what remains of my snails for CUC. The 4 remaining fish seem healthy. Also added pods from algae barn and dose macrobacter weekly to help with uglies. Would like to eventually add corals (softies & lps initially).

I’ve attached recent ATI ICP test results but highlights are:
- Salinity: 29.95 PSU - calibration issue on my refractometer - have adjusted and will increase salinity slowly.
- Ca 445mg/l and Mg 1300mg/l - Guessing my salt mix is causing a buildup of these elements as there are no corals in the tank to consume them. Given I wish to add softies and lps eventually, what salt should I be using?
- Phosphate 25mg/l - will add Seachem phos guard
- No3 18mg/l - will add Purigen, reduce feeding and water higher change frequency should help reduce this
- Bromine 89.58mg/l
- Barium 72.23ug/l (9ug/l for my RODI water) – no clue what to make of this
- Tin 81.19ug/l
- Zinc 11.73ug/l
- Al 10ug/l

Which of these parameters (all?) are hurting the snails/fish?

The high tin, zinc and aluminum I guess points to corroding metal but unfortunately can't find anything rusting so far. Only thing left is an old heater and Hydor Coralia powerhead in the mixing can but they look fine visually. I’ve ruled out the trashcans as a problem since the RODI was fine except for a high Barium reading and that’s also in a Brute trashcan exactly like the saltwater mix.

Here is my plan:
- Ordered another heater and powerhead for the mixing bucket - considered testing the new saltwater mix but may as well replace the equipment as its old. Of course if my new saltwater is the problem then a new water test might be good just to know.
- Ordered Metasorb (not confirmed for Tin but will see).
- Will start 20% weekly water changes.
- I find it hard to believe that vinyl tubing will keep leaching tin in perpetuity and am hoping my metals concentration is from the startup days. But if water changes and others don't will address the issues, will consider replacing the tubing with the Tygon #2475 that @Dr. Jim found.

Sorry for the long post and hope I'm not violating forum etiquette. Thanks again and look forward to your thoughts.

@TheBiochemist
@Randy Holmes-Farley
@Jay Hemdal
@Humblefish

 

[Dr. Jim]

I'll just comment on the tin and vinyl hose that you mentioned. Since the tin is distributed throughout the entire thickness of the tube wall (and not just on the lining), I'm quite sure that tin can leach for a very long time. But, I doubt that or anything on the ICP test is responsible for your fish dying. I'm not sure if the low salinity, elevated tin and/or zinc would bother snails but they may. A "new" small tank with dry rock makes my wonder if thinking along those lines would be a better direction.

 

[Tradevg]

I'll just comment on the tin and vinyl hose that you mentioned. Since the tin is distributed throughout the entire thickness of the tube wall (and not just on the lining), I'm quite sure that tin can leach for a very long time. But, I doubt that or anything on the ICP test is responsible for your fish dying. I'm not sure if the low salinity, elevated tin and/or zinc would bother snails but they may. A "new" small tank with dry rock makes my wonder if thinking along those lines would be a better direction.

Well put and I don’t disagree. I’m just surprised that any tubing that leaches heavy metals would be labeled safe for potable water use. Also why then is it so commonly used in the hobby? I guess I’m taking the shotgun approach to try and stop the loss of livestock and address the problem instead of treating symptoms. Have you had success reducing/eliminating tin by switching to the “inert” tubing you had mentioned?

 

[Dr. Jim]

Well put and I don’t disagree. I’m just surprised that any tubing that leaches heavy metals would be labeled safe for potable water use. Also why then is it so commonly used in the hobby? I guess I’m taking the shotgun approach to try and stop the loss of livestock and address the problem instead of treating symptoms. Have you had success reducing/eliminating tin by switching to the “inert” tubing you had mentioned?

Yes, the tin level steadily dropped after switching the tubing to TYGON (along with water changes) but I soon got rid of that entire system before tin dropped all the way to zero but I was confident that the tubing was the culprit. In the new system, where I also used TYGON, I had no issues with tin. FWIW, someone wrote that the BRS tubing did not leach tin but I don't know the technique that was used to test it. I find it hard to believe that BRS tubing can be much different than Lowes/H.D. tubing at their low price. I may test that tubing someday. (The "inert" TYGON that I found is very expensive).
I mentioned that your level of tin (80's) isn't likely to affect your fish but I am confident it would bother SPS. (No experience with tin and LPS).