High Nitrates after fishless cycle - ATM Colony/DR Tims Ammonia

[Kelman70]

Hi new to the forum however been reefing for almost 10 years and had a few successful tanks over the years.

However after an extreme case of aptasia and battling high nitrates from old tank syndrome i decided to have a fresh start.

This time round i decided to go for AKRA ceramic rock custom made to fit the back wall off my tank and dose with ATM colony and carry out a fishless cycle using Dr Tims Ammonia.

Tank is 300 Litres (70 gallon) with sump. 1st section of sump has filter sock and bubble magus curve 5 skimmer, 2nd section has 2 quartz of pure media ceramic balls and small powerhead to promote flow, 3rd section has heater return pump and small internal filter running carbon.

Fishless cycle went well and ammonia is being consumed within 24hrs when a full dose (2ppm) is applied, nitrite spiked and then settled within 5-7 days and nitrate began to show and kept rising.

Current readings are

Ammonia -0ppm
Nitrite - 1ppm
Nitrate - Approx 100ppm (top end of salifert test scale)
Phosphate - 0-0.05ppm
PH 8.3
KH - 8

I have yet to add fish to the system as i'm not happy with the high nitrates and the fact there is still a slight reading of nitrite. i have carried out a 100% water change over the period of a week and nitrates are still off the charts.

New Mixed Saltwater is showing zero nitrate/nitrite

Can anyone explain what has happened here and how i can go about resolving this issue?

Thanks in Advance
Martin K

 

[lapin]

If you are still dosing ammonia this is why you are getting high nitrates.

 

[W1ngz]

Some clarification, like lapin asked.
Are you still dosing ammonia regularly? Or did you dose 2ppm ammonia more than twice?
Was your 100% water change all at once, or was it a series of changes adding up to a total of 100%?

Off the scale nitrate is probably giving a false reading on the nitrite. If you got to 100ppm nitrate, it's about a 4:1 ratio from ammonia if I'm not mistaken so 100ppm nitrate would seem to indicate you've dosed at least ~25ppm ammonia in total, which is far more than needed to start and confirm a cycle.

 

[Joekovar]

Just out of curiosity.

We're supposed to bypass our skimmers/etc when using Dr Tim's until everything is established.

I'm assuming you remembered to put everything back into the loop?

 

[Kelman70]

If you are still dosing ammonia this is why you are getting high nitrates.

No I stopped dosing ammonia about two weeks ago

Some clarification, like lapin asked.
Are you still dosing ammonia regularly? Or did you dose 2ppm ammonia more than twice?
Was your 100% water change all at once, or was it a series of changes adding up to a total of 100%?

Off the scale nitrate is probably giving a false reading on the nitrite. If you got to 100ppm nitrate, it's about a 4:1 ratio from ammonia if I'm not mistaken so 100ppm nitrate would seem to indicate you've dosed at least ~25ppm ammonia in total, which is far more than needed to start and confirm a cycle.

I was dosing ammonia maybe 3 times a week just enough to maintain the level at 2ppm until the nitrite level was detectable once this spiked and settled i stopped and only dosed a few times after that to confirm that the ammonia was being consumed within 24hrs

water changes were done in around 20-30% increments over the space of a week

so from what you are saying above the high nitrates are present due to a potential overdosing of ammonia, will this have effected the cycle at all? So i guess its just a case of persevering with the water changes?

Just out of curiosity.

We're supposed to bypass our skimmers/etc when using Dr Tim's until everything is established.

I'm assuming you remembered to put everything back into the loop?

Skimmer and all other filtration are back running again however the skimmer is not removing much at all at the moment.

 

[SPR1968]

If your using ATM Colony your supposed to add fish immediately or you’ll get die of of the bacteria.

You also don’t do water changes for I think at leat 7-14 days, and skimmer off, otherwise you’ll remove the bacteria which could still be floating around the water column. It takes time for it to occupy the rockwork etc

So the process is bring the tank to temperature and salinity, add ATM colony and then add fish, or it won’t work, which might explain why your seeing high nitrate levels.

If you follow the ATM instructions there’s nothing else to add or do, it just works. I’ve just started a 2000 litre system with 5 large bottles and 30 fish added on day one. No high nitrates or anything.

It might be worth starting again rather than battling thsee problems from the start

Oh and welcome to R2R as well!

 

[W1ngz]

At this point, I'd say you've cycled the tank (proven by the presence of nitrates). With the false-start, how prolific your bacteria are is anyone's guess, so add fish slowly.

Do as close to a 100% water change as possible, and maybe ONE test dose of 2ppm ammonia to confirm, then go buy some fish.

 

[Dbichler]

I agree with large waterchange but wouldn't add ammonia again you would only be adding nitrates. As long as your ammonia is 0 your good to start very slowly.

 

[tankstudy]

I was dosing ammonia maybe 3 times a week just enough to maintain the level at 2ppm until the nitrite level was detectable once this spiked and settled i stopped and only dosed a few times after that to confirm that the ammonia was being consumed within 24hrs

so from what you are saying above the high nitrates are present due to a potential overdosing of ammonia, will this have effected the cycle at all? So i guess its just a case of persevering with the water changes?

You aren't suppose to maintain the 2 ppm ammonia. The initial only needs to be 2 ppm and then you let it run its course till ammonia and nitrite zero out. Once that does, you add the same amount of ammonia or slightly more to increase the size of your bacteria population.

If you were continuously keeping it at 2 ppm, it explains the high amount of nitrate.

Your just going to have to keep up the water changes until the nitrate comes down once you let ammonia and nitrite zero out.

 

[Reef.]

If you have nitrites you’re nitrate reading will be off, only when nitrites are 0 will you get a true nitrate reading.

 

[lapin]

Next step;
Now that we know you are not adding ammonia or feeding your tank. We know your tank is cycled with a lot of bacteria growing in the rock work; a 50% or more water change is in order. After the change you measure your nitrate level. The next day you test again. It should not rise much, if you are not feeding the tank and your nitrite level is low. If all is in order, you should do another 50% to get the level down to 5 - 10.

 

[brandon429]

withholding fish will never cause a dieoff or loss of bacteria, nor would withholding all feed for five years we already have threads on this. Surfaces underwater support bacteria regardless of our offers, its how bac were on scene before people were.

Dj City for example has a 3 year fallow test where live rock instantly processes ammonia on month 36 as if a full bioload has been present the whole time. Inversely, we can also prove the science in our sandbed rinse thread where we remove instantly, without ramp up, any sandbed from any reef and the rock bacteria are automatically enough for the existing bioload though the surface area has been reduced (surfaces do NOT take on more bac to make up for removed surrounding surface area)

your cycle is complete, meaning anything you add will live. Nitrite and nitrate simply do not matter in cycling. you used 1-2 day bottle bac, plus nearly 20 extra days? done. there are no partial cycles in reefing, its all or nothing, yours is done. proof that all cycles finish at the same time is found in macna marine aquarium conventions where 500 reefs all make the same start date, no outliers. when cash is on the line, somehow people find a way.

 

[Kelman70]

You aren't suppose to maintain the 2 ppm ammonia. The initial only needs to be 2 ppm and then you let it run its course till ammonia and nitrite zero out. Once that does, you add the same amount of ammonia or slightly more to increase the size of your bacteria population.

If you were continuously keeping it at 2 ppm, it explains the high amount of nitrate.

Your just going to have to keep up the water changes until the nitrate comes down once you let ammonia and nitrite zero out.

This is where I've went wrong then, i will do as close to a 100% water change when i get home next week