High phosphates , low nitrate

Rmckoy

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A few questions regarding balance and what could possibly be contributing to phosphate levels increasing daily .

I’ve been testing daily and trying to track nutrient levels

still 2 weeks testing every day and still 0ppm nitrate
This is also testing with 3 different kits
Salifert , Red Sea and API

last nights phosphorus test with Hanna 85ppb which converts to .261ppm phosphates

cal is stable at 425
alk is slowly dropping from what was 7.7 and now 7.5 in 2 days .

could it be flow ?
There is a crossflow 150 on the one end of a 72” 230 gal .Running around 80% pulsing wave mode .
I ordered a scp-180 crossflow to increase flow and thinking of adding it in addition to the 150
On Opposite ends
does a skimmer export nitrate and phosphates or does it only export organics before they convert To nutrients ( nitrate and phosphates )

I have been feeding heavy to try increasing nitrates but hasn’t changed yet .
I was thinking of adding more media and replacing the chemi elite with rowaphos but I don’t want to zero both nutrients

thanks in advance
 

ScottB

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It has been my experience that in a nitrate depleted system, dosing nitrates will cause PO4 to fall. The bacteria that consume PO4 are limited by the lack of nitrates.

Neonitro is good. Or mix your own with Loudwolf Sodium Nitrate.

I would work first on developing a biological solution to high PO4 long before running any GFO. Much rather have too much PO4 versus too little.
 

IslandLifeReef

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There are a couple of reasons that your PO4 is going higher. First, like @ScottB stated, you don't have enough NO3 in your tank and are NO3 limited, causing any algae, coral, or bacteria to consume the NO3 and PO4, but then not having enough NO3 to keep consuming the PO4.

Second could be that your rock/sand could be leaching PO4 into your system. That will continue to happen until the rock/sand and water reach equilibrium.

Third could be that the food you are feeding is high in PO4, and since your system is NO3 limited, it keeps building.

What to do? Like @ScottB stated, you could try dosing NO3 into your system. Once you get to a level of NO3 that allows your system to not be limited by NO3, you should see PO4 start to drop. The other thing you could do is try a product to reduce PO4. There are quite a few out there such as GFO, Lanthium Chloride and Phosguard that will all work. Just be sure to be careful with these and start with about 30%-50% of what the directions tell you to use. These products can act very quickly and could stress your corals.

Whichever method you choose, only use one of them and be patient. It may take a while for the NO3 to work and it could take a while for your system to reach equilibrium if it is the rocks/sand leaching into the system.:)
 
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Rmckoy

Rmckoy

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I contacted my lfs
They suggested dealing with both separately ( dosing nitrate and adding phosphate removing media ( rowaphos )

that being said , is it best to run rowaphos in a reactor or will just being in a high flow area of the sump do the job ?
 

ScottB

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I contacted my lfs
They suggested dealing with both separately ( dosing nitrate and adding phosphate removing media ( rowaphos )

that being said , is it best to run rowaphos in a reactor or will just being in a high flow area of the sump do the job ?
Always beware of pulling two levers at once. Including the reactor, that would be 3 levers.

I would start with dosing nitrates and see how much that pulls down the PO4 over the next week. If they remain high, then you can try adding the Rowa.
 
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Rmckoy

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Always beware of pulling two levers at once. Including the reactor, that would be 3 levers.

I would start with dosing nitrates and see how much that pulls down the PO4 over the next week. If they remain high, then you can try adding the Rowa.
That being said .
the only product available that I was able to find is esv b-ionic nitrate.
Will dosing this product effect any other elements such as cal or alk ?
 

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ScottB

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That being said .
the only product available that I was able to find is esv b-ionic nitrate.
Will dosing this product effect any other elements such as cal or alk ?
Interesting. I am a fan of ESV products and was unaware they made that product. In the past I've dosed NaNo3 sodium nitrate but not this.

It is cool that they at list the core ingredient but not familiar with potential ancillary impacts.
 

blasterman

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Here's an example of the problem with using feeding to increase nutrients. Quite often it will spike phosphate or nitrate, but not both so you get an imbalance.

By going back to more conservative feeding and raising nitrate a bit it might really beat down phosphate more than you think.

Sodium nitrate is dirt cheap on amazon. I just got a pouch for $7...it's used for cooking. Doesn't take much either. 1/4 teaspoon raises my 20L 5-10ppm or something like that.

If you have corals, especially SPS don't do it all at one time.
 
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Here's an example of the problem with using feeding to increase nutrients. Quite often it will spike phosphate or nitrate, but not both so you get an imbalance.

By going back to more conservative feeding and raising nitrate a bit it might really beat down phosphate more than you think.

Sodium nitrate is dirt cheap on amazon. I just got a pouch for $7...it's used for cooking. Doesn't take much either. 1/4 teaspoon raises my 20L 5-10ppm or something like that.

If you have corals, especially SPS don't do it all at one time.
I was going to try dosing to raise nitrate 1ppm and wait to see what that does
If I can get to 5ppm or even 10 I’ll be happy .
hopefully that’s enough to lower phosphates
 
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Rmckoy

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I was going to try dosing to raise nitrate 1ppm and wait to see what that does
If I can get to 5ppm or even 10 I’ll be happy .
hopefully that’s enough to lower phosphates
Here's an example of the problem with using feeding to increase nutrients. Quite often it will spike phosphate or nitrate, but not both so you get an imbalance.

By going back to more conservative feeding and raising nitrate a bit it might really beat down phosphate more than you think.

Sodium nitrate is dirt cheap on amazon. I just got a pouch for $7...it's used for cooking. Doesn't take much either. 1/4 teaspoon raises my 20L 5-10ppm or something like that.

If you have corals, especially SPS don't do it all at one time.
It says on the back will convert the added nitrate to alk ..
will this raise my alk ?
 
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Rmckoy

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230 gal dt + sumo +skimmer
I dosed for 230 gal

11.5ml
So I’m theory I should have 1ppm nitrate tomorrow ?
Dose and test once daily ?
 

IslandLifeReef

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230 gal dt + sumo +skimmer
I dosed for 230 gal

11.5ml
So I’m theory I should have 1ppm nitrate tomorrow ?
Dose and test once daily ?


Remember, your system is NO3 limited. You may not see any NO3 when you test tomorrow because your tank is consuming it all. If that is the case, follow the instructions and don't adjust your dosage for 5 days. At the end of the 5 days, I would check PO4 as well and see if that is continuing to increase, stays the same, or decreases slightly.

I would also go back to normal feeding while you are dosing just in case it is the food that is adding the additional PO4.

Like I said earlier, don't change too many things at once. If you follow your LFS's advice and try to use something to reduce PO4 while dosing to increase NO3, you risk overshooting on both.

What type of food are you feeding?
 
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Rmckoy

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Remember, your system is NO3 limited. You may not see any NO3 when you test tomorrow because your tank is consuming it all. If that is the case, follow the instructions and don't adjust your dosage for 5 days. At the end of the 5 days, I would check PO4 as well and see if that is continuing to increase, stays the same, or decreases slightly.

I would also go back to normal feeding while you are dosing just in case it is the food that is adding the additional PO4.

Like I said earlier, don't change too many things at once. If you follow your LFS's advice and try to use something to reduce PO4 while dosing to increase NO3, you risk overshooting on both.

What type of food are you feeding?
New life spectrum pellets ,
Purple seaweed
And every other day I was adding polyp extender and reef roids
 

IslandLifeReef

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New life spectrum pellets ,
Purple seaweed
And every other day I was adding polyp extender and reef roids

That could be the source of the PO4. Both the polyp extender and reef roids are high in PO4. Pellets are another known source of PO4, but not sure about that specific brand. Cut back the reef roids and extender to once a week and try mixing in some frozen food instead of pellets some days. I would give that a 30 day trial along with your dosing and see how things start looking.
 
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Rmckoy

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That could be the source of the PO4. Both the polyp extender and reef roids are high in PO4. Pellets are another known source of PO4, but not sure about that specific brand. Cut back the reef roids and extender to once a week and try mixing in some frozen food instead of pellets some days. I would give that a 30 day trial along with your dosing and see how things start looking.
Day #3 dosing 11.5 ml
Noticed today a few of the newest acros are starting to grow algae
 

Mastiffsrule

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Hi,

Just stopped by as you have the same situation as I. You already had great advice given, so I will not add. My question though is, did you have a problem with the way the tank was running or just concerned with the numbers?

I only ask because I run close to zero No3 and around .25 to .5 Po4 and so far so good. (As long as I don’t do my usually mastiffsrule mess ups :eek: ) I run Rowa continually, and if Po4 gets too high I switch to high cap gfo. I would rather try to remove than add in. My high Po4 is from feedings. Once you add new stuff , you never know 100% how your tank will react.

As mentioned, the reef roids are crazy high Po4. I did a 30 day test with them. Great stuff, just monitor.

Just thoughts.
 

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I was at the same problem and was high po4 and was managing it with getting po4 out using lanthanum chloride .. till i dosed no3 and ohhh really something changes the po4 came down from 0.12 to 0.07 next day then to 0.03 then 0.0 and then i noticed change in sps to be lighter in colors so i dosed po4 but this time i dosed and suddenly in one week no3 went to 5ppm and po4 went to 0.5 looks like i dosed to much po4 !! Its was so hard for me to manage that dosing even with dosing pump !! My stupid mistake was to get the po4 down again and this time i get it down suddenly in one day went to 0.03 now i see some sps is showing stress and i think i should manage this process very very slowly otherwise i will be harming those animals and maybe i will be the reason for them death not the po4 !! So i do not know if i am the right person to say it but please please take care with dosing and do it very very slow even in months do not rush it like me things is not going to be change next day !! Only bad things happen fast but your good results should be late after you working hard to solve it i think you will be awarded
 

homer1475

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While DIY products are cheaper, I find neonitro, and neophos from brightwell to be very easy to use and very precise(if you follow their directions) to get an exact measured amount in the tank.

IE if I want to add 4ppm of nitrate to my tank, I use their calculations to figure how much to add. Test an hour later and I have exactly the number I should have according to my dosage.

A little goes a long way with these 2 products. But as already mentioned, you are nitrate limited. So it may take quite a bit to get any measurable amount. Just don't get discouraged if you keep adding and nothing shows up on your test kits(you need to feed those nitrate limited things before you have an excess(what we test for)). Just keep at it till you get a measurable amount, then you'll notice you can ween off the dosage a bit.
 

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Curious and following. Some stuff never gets old - learning in reef hobby is one of them.

Going through the same situation - High phosphate and low nitrates - Shutdown my refugium, shut down my skimmer still No3 are 3.7 and phosphates at .21 (last checked).

Today I have dosed NeoNitrate and yet to check the numbers tomorrow. Losing my trachy and it aches .......
 

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Curious and following. Some stuff never gets old - learning in reef hobby is one of them.

Going through the same situation - High phosphate and low nitrates - Shutdown my refugium, shut down my skimmer still No3 are 3.7 and phosphates at .21 (last checked).

Today I have dosed NeoNitrate and yet to check the numbers tomorrow. Losing my trachy and it aches .......
I'd be looking for another cause if the trachy is suffering. Those nutrients aren't everyone's ideal, but something else is bothering it.

But this pattern of low/no nitrate and high(er) PO4 seems pretty common. Both my systems creep to this position over time. I feed a ton, including a lot of nori, so I have to carefully dose some lanthanum chloride every 3-4 weeks.
 
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