History was made with the $24,999.99 fish!

skimjim

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Wow...guess this is turning into RC where you cant debate anything on a person's opinions. Just the person typing is right and everyone else is wrong and is called out for it WITHOUT any opposing debate ideas.

I'll say you're wrong BUT I have debate material to back up my opinions

I'm here to debate ...not to be lynched
 

Thales

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Wow...guess this is turning into RC where you cant debate anything on a person's opinions. Just the person typing is right and everyone else is wrong and is called out for it WITHOUT any rebuking debate ideas.

I'm here to debate ...not to be lynched
I don't want to debate or attack you (people calling others liars, I feel like poking at today, but that isn't you), I want to understand your position by having a conversation with you about what you think.
 
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saltyhog

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skimjim

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I don't want to debate, I want to understand your position by having a conversation with you about what you think.
I thought the convo was clear.

I think buying and hopefully keeping an animal waaaaay outside it's natural habitat is not a wise choice.

But! Who am.i to tell ppl how to spend their money. Forgive me for coming across that way.

I just think its injustice to buy an animal that has no reason to be in an unnatural environment.

All.my fish? Yeah somewhat in my own unnatural environment but the youngest one is 5yrs old. Smthg to be said about that.

Ley me backpedal a bit. I have no idea who bought this fish. Maybe the person is a Master in the hobby...has a HUGE tank. Facts are unknown.

Just this post reminds me everytime I see a Flame Angel and know with a 90% certainty that it will.not survive past 12mos. I get frustrated when I see them at LFSs.

This outrageous fish reminds me of that.....



.
 

Thales

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I thought the convo was clear.

I think buying and hopefully keeping an animal waaaaay outside it's natural habitat is not a wise choice.

But! Who am.i to tell ppl how to spend their money. Forgive me for coming across that way.

I just think its injustice to buy an animal that has no reason to be in an unnatural environment.

All.my fish? Yeah somewhat in my own unnatural environment but the youngest one is 5yrs old. Smthg to be said about that.

Ley me backpedal a bit. I have no idea who bought this fish. Maybe the person is a Master in the hobby...has a HUGE tank. Facts are unknown.

Just this post reminds me everytime I see a Flame Angel and know with a 90% certainty that it will.not survive past 12mos. I get frustrated when I see them at LFSs.

This outrageous fish reminds me of that.....



.

Ok, never mind. Thanks anyway.
 

tripdad

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I'm not the poster you were talking to but I would like to weigh in. The number of wild-caught fish that die in this hobby is really getting to me. I'm not sure if I'll ever buy another fish, and absolutely will never purchase a wild-caught one. I couldn't care less about the price of the fish, as long as I know that it wasn't plucked from the wild.
I think this perspective may be one we are all coming to embrace. That was my point earlier, after we have "domesticated" them we no longer seem to have a moral issue with keeping any pet. But there is NO cage I've ever seen that can be big enough to replace the sky, even 1 square mile of it. So it follows that housing any bird is cruel as most have at least that range. I have never seen a single horse corral that mimics an open plain on size. So therefore keeping any horse is cruel. We cut dogs ears so they stand up straight, bob tails so they are short, declaw cats leaving them defenseless . Is any of that "normal" for the animal? An improvement on their care? I really think this is all just a matter of perspective by the general public and us. At the extreme no large animal should ever be housed in a zoo. No bird in any cage ever. And so on but we accept dogs and cats living in crates for 8-10 hours a day? Don't get me wrong, I have owned both cats and dogs. I just never faced any ethical dilemma for doing so. I do think we need to be "ethical" in our taking from the oceans. I doubt anyone debates that. But we take FAR less than commercial fishing WASTES in by catch in a single month. Our goal is to take care of those we take and give them a long life so I'm not seeing why I should have an ethical dilemma for doing so. I think this is just a popular target, the hobby of reefing/fish, for right now. In a hundred years maybe we will have golden doodle tangs and rag doll clown fish. Heck, I would love to see the magical "blue" clownfish some day! I think domesticated pets are just so long removed from their wild cousins that it does not cause us pause. Who knows, but for now lets just keep a reasonable perspective on it.
 
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saltyhog

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I thought the convo was clear.

I think buying and hopefully keeping an animal waaaaay outside it's natural habitat is not a wise choice.

But! Who am.i to tell ppl how to spend their money. Forgive me for coming across that way.

I just think its injustice to buy an animal that has no reason to be in an unnatural environment.

All.my fish? Yeah somewhat in my own unnatural environment but the youngest one is 5yrs old. Smthg to be said about that.

Ley me backpedal a bit. I have no idea who bought this fish. Maybe the person is a Master in the hobby...has a HUGE tank. Facts are unknown.

Just this post reminds me everytime I see a Flame Angel and know with a 90% certainty that it will.not survive past 12mos. I get frustrated when I see them at LFSs.

This outrageous fish reminds me of that.....



.
Can you expound on the bold areas above? Every animal taken from the wild is in an unnatural environment. Fish from 80' in 2' tank are ok but those from 400' are not? Just having a hard time understanding why this fish is different.

I also don't understand the Flame Angel issue. I had a flame angel that I kept for a year or two and is still thriving in a friends FOWLR (he took a liking to too many of my corals). They often come from Hawaii and are not collected with cyanide from there for sure.
 
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skimjim

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Can you expound on the bold areas above? Every animal taken from the wild is in an unnatural environment. Fish from 80' in 2' tank are ok but those from 400' are not? Just having a hard time understanding why this fish is different.

I also don't understand the Flame Angel issue. I had a flame angel that I kept for a year or two and is still thriving in a friends FOWLR (he took a liking to too many of my corals). They often come from Hawaii and are not collected with cyanide from their for sure.
I guess I'm grouping this fish in with Jellyfish.....which are deep water and known to last about 6mos and avg. I know this after talking to the Main Caretaker at a public aquarium where they have a Jellyfish room.

Personal I wouldnt keep a deepwater anything....

So question back to you. You see no difference btwn an ocean depth of 40ft versus 400ft?

I'm not a master diver but I've dove in 40ft of water. About 50-70% sunlight. Seems a few degrees cooler than the first 10ft of water.

I would imagine at 400ft there would be less than 0.5% of sunlight.

The temperature (known as thermocline) drops from ~22 celcius to 16

Major difference btwn 40 and 400ft of water.

But again, if this fish can be acclimated and live several years in captivity then ALL that I wrote is crap'olla. Plz be sure to take a final stomach punch at me before leaving to make yourself feel better.

I personally would not take-on this fish knowing its costs and it's natural habitat. Call me c r a z y


.
 

TheHarold

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I guess I'm grouping this fish in with Jellyfish.....which are deep water and known to last about 6mos and avg. I know this after talking to the Main Caretaker at a public aquarium where they have a Jellyfish room.

Personal I wouldnt keep a deepwater anything....

So question back to you. You see no difference btwn an ocean depth of 40ft versus 400ft?

I'm not a master diver but I've dove in 40ft of water. About 50-70% sunlight. Seems a few degrees cooler than the first 10ft of water.

I would imagine at 400ft there would be less than 0.5% of sunlight.

The temperature (known as thermocline) drops from ~22 celcius to 16

Major difference btwn 40 and 400ft of water.

But again, if this fish can be acclimated and live several years in captivity then ALL that I wrote is crap'olla. Plz be sure to take a final stomach punch at me before leaving to make yourself feel better.

I personally would not take-on this fish knowing its costs and it's natural habitat. Call me c r a z y


.
As reefing hobbyists with little glass boxes, we lost the "Oh live animals need to be in their natural habitat" argument a long time ago. You're kind of arbitrarily setting the line at "deepwater". But that doesnt matter TBH. We live at sea level, thousands of feed above, whatever. Once acclimated, there's no concern regarding pressure.

All in all, I presume someone who spent 25k on the fish is MORE than aware of the lighting and temperature requirements ;)
 

skimjim

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So all fish?
I'm stepping out. I know what's common sense for me.

Tell ya what
YOU keep on keeping on.
I'll keep on keeping on.

I have a p h e n o m e n a l tank based on the choices I've made. Si I'll just keep on keeping on.

Insane debating is trying to back your opinion over and over again. I've voiced my unpopular opinion

No reason to debate when stones are in mid-flight

 
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saltyhog

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I guess I'm grouping this fish in with Jellyfish.....which are deep water and known to last about 6mos and avg. I know this after talking to the Main Caretaker at a public aquarium where they have a Jellyfish room.

Personal I wouldnt keep a deepwater anything....

So question back to you. You see no difference btwn an ocean depth of 40ft versus 400ft?

I'm not a master diver but I've dove in 40ft of water. About 50-70% sunlight. Seems a few degrees cooler than the first 10ft of water.



.
No, not really. You obviously would have to reduce the lighting and the fish would likely best be in a species only tank....though many of the colorful wrasse we keep in brightly lit reef aquariums are from depths with markedly reduced light.

I've dove to 150' before and will have to consult my log book. It may have been too long ago to still be on my computer. However the temp was the same at 10' as it was 100'. Only about 1 degree cooler at 150'. That's just one locale though. I'm sure at 400' the difference is greater. However adjusting the temp of the tank is not difficult to do.

I promise, no one is trying to stomach punch you! It's not really a debate if we agree is it?:D

I agree with you and also wouldn't take on caring for this fish....I'm not qualified and not financially able to. I'm not going to through stones at someone who is though.:)
 

sde1500

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I'm stepping out of this lynching. I know what's common sense for me
I don't think anyone was directing anything that bad your way. You were making it a point to express a very strong counter-opinion, replete with a lot of caps lock. Obviously in doing so you are opening yourself up to counter-points. Calling that a lynching is being a bit disingenuous, you say you are here to debate, then debate. You draw the line in your fish keeping at well established species that you know take well to aquarium life. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, I do the same for now. I just can't take my personal situation and apply it to others. There are certainly fish that should be left in the ocean, I don't think this one has even been collected enough to outright say it should or shouldn't be on that list.
 

Tuffyyyyy

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I think this perspective may be one we are all coming to embrace. That was my point earlier, after we have "domesticated" them we no longer seem to have a moral issue with keeping any pet. But there is NO cage I've ever seen that can be big enough to replace the sky, even 1 square mile of it. So it follows that housing any bird is cruel as most have at least that range. I have never seen a single horse corral that mimics an open plain on size. So therefore keeping any horse is cruel. We cut dogs ears so they stand up straight, bob tails so they are short, declaw cats leaving them defenseless . Is any of that "normal" for the animal? An improvement on their care? I really think this is all just a matter of perspective by the general public and us. At the extreme no large animal should ever be housed in a zoo. No bird in any cage ever. And so on but we accept dogs and cats living in crates for 8-10 hours a day? Don't get me wrong, I have owned both cats and dogs. I just never faced any ethical dilemma for doing so. I do think we need to be "ethical" in our taking from the oceans. I doubt anyone debates that. But we take FAR less than commercial fishing WASTES in by catch in a single month. Our goal is to take care of those we take and give them a long life so I'm not seeing why I should have an ethical dilemma for doing so. I think this is just a popular target, the hobby of reefing/fish, for right now. In a hundred years maybe we will have golden doodle tangs and rag doll clown fish. Heck, I would love to see the magical "blue" clownfish some day! I think domesticated pets are just so long removed from their wild cousins that it does not cause us pause. Who knows, but for now lets just keep a reasonable perspective on it.
I don't think your points on cats & dogs (and horses to a lesser extent) is valid since they have truly been domesticated over thousands of years and would no longer survive in the wild. Other than that I don't think it's an ethical dilemma, I think it's wrong. Do zoos still pull animals out of the wild? Most of the animals within my local zoo were rescued from poor conditions. Is it as good as being in the wild? No, of course not, but it's certainly better than where they were being held. I don't agree with people keeping birds or making any of those modifications to their pets. I'm also not a fan of the "whataboutism" that this hobby likes to tout when comparing the tropic fish taken for aquariums vs. fish caught for food.

The argument here is whether or not it's ethical for us to take wild animals from a delicate ecosystem so that it can most likely die within the next 6-18 months once its owner gets tired of doing water changes.
 

skimjim

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I don't think anyone was directing anything that bad your way. You were making it a point to express a very strong counter-opinion, replete with a lot of caps lock. Obviously in doing so you are opening yourself up to counter-points. Calling that a lynching is being a bit disingenuous, you say you are here to debate, then debate. You draw the line in your fish keeping at well established species that you know take well to aquarium life. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, I do the same for now. I just can't take my personal situation and apply it to others. There are certainly fish that should be left in the ocean, I don't think this one has even been collected enough to outright say it should or shouldn't be on that list.
Agreed. I'm sorry. Must be a hot button for me that I didn't know existed. I respectfully step away
 

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