HLLE?

[mjszos]

Good afternoon fish docs,

I'd just like quick confirmation that my diagnosis of HLLE on my Yellow Tang is correct. Following a long out of town trip, my parameters were all out of whack, and I also had to do an emergency breakdown of the tank and move the fish to a holding tank. This is a Biota Yellow Tang I have had for ~18 months.

Looking back on videos that my wife took on January 2024, those spots were there as well, and have not grown or changed at all since.

There is, as far as I can tell no damage to the fins (He got a little beat up during the move, but I can see it's healing).

My research has indicated that there is no formal treatment for HLLE aside from stable parameters and a healthy diet.

Thanks in advance!

(ignore the white spots, that's on the exterior of the tank)

(apologies for low quality photo, he doesn't sit still long enough to get a good photo and this is a zoomed in/cropped FTS from yesterday evening)

 

[vetteguy53081]

Good afternoon fish docs,

I'd just like quick confirmation that my diagnosis of HLLE on my Yellow Tang is correct. Following a long out of town trip, my parameters were all out of whack, and I also had to do an emergency breakdown of the tank and move the fish to a holding tank. This is a Biota Yellow Tang I have had for ~18 months.

Looking back on videos that my wife took on January 2024, those spots were there as well, and have not grown or changed at all since.

There is, as far as I can tell no damage to the fins (He got a little beat up during the move, but I can see it's healing).

My research has indicated that there is no formal treatment for HLLE aside from stable parameters and a healthy diet.

Thanks in advance!

(ignore the white spots, that's on the exterior of the tank)

(apologies for low quality photo, he doesn't sit still long enough to get a good photo and this is a zoomed in/cropped FTS from yesterday evening)

Yes it is and has potential to become more severe and is often due to vitamin deficiency and poor water quality which causes pits and flesh missing mainly in tangs, angels and some rabbitfish. It is often caused by poor water quality, high use of carbon, poor water quality (elevated nitrate and ammonia) and inadequate/poor diet. It is not life threating in any way but offers secondary infection in some cases.
Maintaining GOOD water quality and diet are often the fixes and with severe cases, some healing.
Some foods to feed tang are :
LRS herbivore diet
Formula 2 flake and frozen
TDO Pellets
small plankton
Hikari Marine cuisine
Ocean nutrition veggie diet
spirulina brine shrimp
mysis shrimp
Prime reef
Nori seaweed basted with garlic extract

Add selcon vitamins to foods occasionally

 

[KrisReef]

The tank spots look like exoparasites and are a bit distracting from the head erosion.

I don’t think this is lateral line, but it may be a related thing?

People blame using carbon for lateral line erosion, have you removed carbon (charcoal) filters from your system?

Eager to see what the experts say?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Yellow tangs can get HLLE as well as a related issue called epithelial thinning. Carbon use is implicated in HLLE. The thinning issue cause is unknown, but also seems related to the tank environment.

 

[mjszos]

Yes it is and has potential to become more severe and is often due to vitamin deficiency and poor water quality which causes pits and flesh missing mainly in tangs, angels and some rabbitfish. It is often caused by poor water quality, high use of carbon, poor water quality (elevated nitrate and ammonia) and inadequate/poor diet. It is not life threating in any way but offers secondary infection in some cases.
Maintaining GOOD water quality and diet are often the fixes and with severe cases, some healing.
Some foods to feed tang are :
LRS herbivore diet
Formula 2 flake and frozen
TDO Pellets
small plankton
Hikari Marine cuisine
Ocean nutrition veggie diet
spirulina brine shrimp
mysis shrimp
Prime reef
Nori seaweed basted with garlic extract

Add selcon vitamins to foods occasionally

Oddly enough, I've been back/forth with my wife on this who keeps on sending me videos she took of the Tang... It has had these markings since we got it (almost 2 full years ago) with 0 progression or change. Regarding diet, I feed a combination of:

LRS Herbivore
LRS Reef Frenzy
PE Mysis
Spirulina
Hikari Mega Marine Algae

I provide at a minimum 1/4 sheet of Nori daily in a Gourmet Grazer and replenish it as needed.

And the occasional one-off packs I pick up at the store and cycle through. The only food I have not introduced to the tank has been bloodworms, but will likely do so in the future.

The tank spots look like exoparasites and are a bit distracting from the head erosion.

I don’t think this is lateral line, but it may be a related thing?

People blame using carbon for lateral line erosion, have you removed carbon (charcoal) filters from your system?

Eager to see what the experts say?

Unfortunately the glass was dirty on the outside (some splashing) that I was unable to clean before getting the photo. There are no spots on his body, nor is there any deterioration of fins. Just these markings around the eyes.

I was using a carbon reactor, but it was in my system for less than 48 hours before a seam failure was noticed and got broken down. It is not setup in the temporary system. I am not dosing anything in the tank either, just water changes and food.

Yellow tangs can get HLLE as well as a related issue called epithelial thinning. Carbon use is implicated in HLLE. The thinning issue cause is unknown, but also seems related to the tank environment.

As mentioned above, this marking I've confirmed has been present on the fish since it's grown into coloration (it is a Biota YT purchased from an LFS as a baby, maybe the size of a quarter). Regarding epithelial thinning, brief research on this indicates that it appears to be more common in captive bred fish, but does not appear to be reversible?

Should this be HLLE, would it not be expected to see progression of some sort, or any sort of damage to the fins?



Edit: Editing to add thank you all for your feedback and expertise. Fish disease is an area I am severely lacking in knowledge on, so the patience and wealth of knowledge within this community is immensely helpful.

 

[exnisstech]

I have 3 biota yellows purchased last march. One has signs of hlle and the other two do not. They are in the same tank and all eat the same food. I think it's just something that can happen with the biota baby yellows but that is speculation on my part. Maybe some don't get as much nutrition when they are competing as babies in a tank full of others and it shows up later when they color up.

 

[mjszos]

I have 3 biota yellows purchased last march. One has signs of hlle and the other two do not. They are in the same tank and all eat the same food. I think it's just something that can happen with the biota baby yellows but that is speculation on my part. Maybe some don't get as much nutrition when they are competing as babies in a tank full of others and it shows up later when they color up.

I'm hoping its something as simple as this, when I posted this initially I didn't have photographic evidence that this has been an issue for as long as we've had it, but upon further discussion with my wife it has been confirmed.

Frankly, due to the high stress environment of the tank recently (significant nutrient swings, followed by an eventual breakdown) I have been on high alert and wanting to ensure that everyone is at peak health in the holding tank prior to introducing them to the new tank in a few weeks.

Ultimately, this may be a nothing burger but the well being of my fish is the utmost priority for me in this hobby. If I'm not able to provide them a stable home, great nutrition, and a good life, I firmly believe I should not be keeping them.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Oddly enough, I've been back/forth with my wife on this who keeps on sending me videos she took of the Tang... It has had these markings since we got it (almost 2 full years ago) with 0 progression or change. Regarding diet, I feed a combination of:

LRS Herbivore
LRS Reef Frenzy
PE Mysis
Spirulina
Hikari Mega Marine Algae

I provide at a minimum 1/4 sheet of Nori daily in a Gourmet Grazer and replenish it as needed.

And the occasional one-off packs I pick up at the store and cycle through. The only food I have not introduced to the tank has been bloodworms, but will likely do so in the future.



Unfortunately the glass was dirty on the outside (some splashing) that I was unable to clean before getting the photo. There are no spots on his body, nor is there any deterioration of fins. Just these markings around the eyes.

I was using a carbon reactor, but it was in my system for less than 48 hours before a seam failure was noticed and got broken down. It is not setup in the temporary system. I am not dosing anything in the tank either, just water changes and food.



As mentioned above, this marking I've confirmed has been present on the fish since it's grown into coloration (it is a Biota YT purchased from an LFS as a baby, maybe the size of a quarter). Regarding epithelial thinning, brief research on this indicates that it appears to be more common in captive bred fish, but does not appear to be reversible?

Should this be HLLE, would it not be expected to see progression of some sort, or any sort of damage to the fins?



Edit: Editing to add thank you all for your feedback and expertise. Fish disease is an area I am severely lacking in knowledge on, so the patience and wealth of knowledge within this community is immensely helpful.

This is indeed HLLE and not uncommon with tangs and even full size angels

 

[exnisstech]

Ultimately, this may be a nothing burger but the well being of my fish is the utmost priority for me in this hobby. If I'm not able to provide them a stable home, great nutrition, and a good life, I firmly believe I should not be keeping them

I wish more people felt this way about all animals under our care.

 

[mjszos]

This is indeed HLLE and not uncommon with tangs and even full size angels

Noted and thank you for your feedback. I will be making some adjustments to their diet based on your recommendations.

 

[exnisstech]

I just want to mention that I have my doubts that the hlle on these biota yellows is diet related. At least I think it's not related to what I feed. I have two adult yellows that I've had for several years and a purple that I've had for over 6 years. I recently lost my blue hippo unexpectedly after 5 years. The hippos seem to be really prone to hlle. Mine had none and I have zero hlle on any other fish but the one biota. Just mentioning it because I'm not sure if there is really anything I could have done to prevent it.

 

[mjszos]

I just want to mention that I have my doubts that the hlle on these biota yellows is diet related. At least I think it's not related to what I feed. I have two adult yellows that I've had for several years and a purple that I've had for over 6 years. I recently lost my blue hippo unexpectedly after 5 years. The hippos seem to be really prone to hlle. Mine had none and I have zero hlle on any other fish but the one biota. Just mentioning it because I'm not sure if there is really anything I could have done to prevent it.

I certainly am guilty of not always keeping the most ideal parameters, but I do find it unusual that these markings have been present for quite a while, but there has been no progression. I would have assumed that it would get worse over time.

No other inhabitant in the tank is showing signs of any distress, everyone is eating, etc. Time will tell, the best I can do is continue to care for it.

 

[exnisstech]

I'm not fretting over it. They're all still great fish and it's not progressing on mine that has it. This is from a while back. The fish has colored up much more since the photo was taken but the white around the eye looks the same.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Oddly enough, I've been back/forth with my wife on this who keeps on sending me videos she took of the Tang... It has had these markings since we got it (almost 2 full years ago) with 0 progression or change. Regarding diet, I feed a combination of:

LRS Herbivore
LRS Reef Frenzy
PE Mysis
Spirulina
Hikari Mega Marine Algae

I provide at a minimum 1/4 sheet of Nori daily in a Gourmet Grazer and replenish it as needed.

And the occasional one-off packs I pick up at the store and cycle through. The only food I have not introduced to the tank has been bloodworms, but will likely do so in the future.



Unfortunately the glass was dirty on the outside (some splashing) that I was unable to clean before getting the photo. There are no spots on his body, nor is there any deterioration of fins. Just these markings around the eyes.

I was using a carbon reactor, but it was in my system for less than 48 hours before a seam failure was noticed and got broken down. It is not setup in the temporary system. I am not dosing anything in the tank either, just water changes and food.



As mentioned above, this marking I've confirmed has been present on the fish since it's grown into coloration (it is a Biota YT purchased from an LFS as a baby, maybe the size of a quarter). Regarding epithelial thinning, brief research on this indicates that it appears to be more common in captive bred fish, but does not appear to be reversible?

Should this be HLLE, would it not be expected to see progression of some sort, or any sort of damage to the fins?



Edit: Editing to add thank you all for your feedback and expertise. Fish disease is an area I am severely lacking in knowledge on, so the patience and wealth of knowledge within this community is immensely helpful.

Here is a write up I did for Coral magazine about this:

Captive-Bred Yellow Tangs - showing HLLE? - CORAL Magazine

I've seen photographs of wild Black Tangs, taken with flash photography, where they show what looks like classic HLLE lesions, but which is simply due to the camera flash.

www.coralmagazine.com

 

[mjszos]

Here is a write up I did for Coral magazine about this:

Captive-Bred Yellow Tangs - showing HLLE? - CORAL Magazine

I've seen photographs of wild Black Tangs, taken with flash photography, where they show what looks like classic HLLE lesions, but which is simply due to the camera flash.

www.coralmagazine.com

This should work as a great lesson for me to read the author of articles before I dig further; this is the article I've been garnering most of the information on the subject from in regards to captive-bred YT's.

Here's hoping the fish continues to not see further expansion of HLLE symptoms and will remain a pig in my tank.

Thanks for all of the work you do, and your accessibility in the community, Jay.

 

[exnisstech]

Just following up after reading Jay's article. Thank you @Jay Hemdal. This is the one yellow out of my three that exhibits the hlle. Image was taken today and it does look like it may be receding or not getting larger as the fish grows. I agree it has not caused scarring but more just a lack of yellow color and it does not spread like hlle normally does in wild caught fish that end up with it.