How’s my logic? - adding biodiversity to promote stability to a new tank start with dead rock.

Tired

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 29, 2020
Messages
4,016
Reaction score
4,104
Location
Central Texas
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
Well of course there are organisms that are known to be good to add, but it's not a full picture. I see people who seem to think that if they buy dry rock and a bottle of bacteria, they can wind up with something just as good as live rock. It doesn't work that way. Even dry rock that's put in the ocean takes years to become really nice, established live rock, and rock in an aquarium isn't surrounded by anything approaching the same amount of life that's around ocean rock. Dry rock just isn't comparable to live. Sure, you can wind up with something that works, but it requires a lot more effort and is generally more prone to failing than just putting pre-established live rock into a tank. You can't buy the stuff that comes in on live rock anywhere else. Even if we're just talking about known useful microfauna- there's, what, one place that sells some of those? And IMO it's all incredibly overpriced. They sell 6 small bristleworms for $30, last I checked.

Sourcing live rock is getting harder, yes, but it's not impossible. Currently, reefers usually have a choice between live and dry, albeit with shipping costs for live.

As for the future, I would hope that legality could wind up in a place where maricultured live rock is still perfectly fine. The reason it's harder to get live rock is mostly because places aren't allowed to chop up an existing reef and sell you the rocks from it, which IMO is very reasonable. What would be great to see is maricultured live rock in more places around the world, both for local-ish availability in the same country, and to be imported to everybody else.

If that doesn't work out... there's a market fo places to start making their own. And I don't mean the situation where they put dry rock in some water for a few months to grow bacteria. I mean, someone with a coral culture facility ought to start culturing live rock, too. Put some really good, mature live rock with some dry rock, feed the whole thing heavily, and wait. The best way to turn dry rock into live rock, if you can't get it into the ocean, is to put it in with other live rock. Some things don't reproduce in aquaria, but plenty would in the right conditions, and anyone doing this could raise other things in the tub as well. Use it as a coral growout or such.
 

thewire

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Oct 1, 2009
Messages
269
Reaction score
170
Location
Chantilly, VA
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
This is just opinion, worth exactly what you have paid for it so...

This burning desire to go "pest free" carries with it real downsides, some more long lasting than others. The cycle is the easy part that really cannot go wrong. But after that, the uglies can extend for many months. Still, those phases will pass, it just takes twice as long versus a majority live rock start.

While there will always be exceptions (and exceptional reefers who often defy the odds), dead rock starts really struggle to keep acropora even at 18-24 months.

Lastly, 90% of the folks in the mega dinoflagellate thread ("Are you tired..") started with dead rock, counting on bottled bacteria for "diversity". Creating a natural biome without any real Mother Nature just intuitively does not make sense to me. Especially in the beginning. Dinoflagellates were not really "a thing" back when live rock starts were the norm. 9,909 posts over almost 500 pages. It is the first thing I ask and the answer is almost always the same: dead rock.

I get your logic about colonizing some bricks in another system. It is a compromise with some probable value, just not sure how much. Bacterial film is good; it is just not everything you could do to start your biome.
99% people with Dino is because they stripped all the PO4 or N4 out the water. The idea of chasing the magic numbers and constantly dosing and using reactors on everything from the get go will get you Dino. At least from what I read. It seems from when i took a break from the hobby in 2012 and now, we are conditioned more to dose more stuffs into the tank. It's worst now.
Dino is part of the reef ecosystem. It's a fact.
 

Sarlindescent

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 26, 2015
Messages
143
Reaction score
144
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Sourcing live rock is getting harder. And I am assuming it will only get more so in future to the point that it may even be rare. So do folks really have a choice. I see a lot of posts saying live rock is better, but even if it is do we really have a choice ? Or we do we have to transition to using dry rock and learn to successfully setup a reef with that ?
Getting live rock out of the ocean has becoming substantially more difficult, but as of 2 years ago, multiple reef businesses set up rock curing tubs. I have no clue at this point if those were scrapped or still going, but as the hobby transitions into full aquaculture everything, I suspect these setups will continue to become more and more viable.

Many of the businesses took multiple approaches. Some procured Florida ocean rock(may action be gulf) and feed it to increase density of life. Some took tubs of dry rock and added just various sponges.

Having tried this method vs pure dry rock, I am a firm believer in mostly dry rock with a small amount of high concentration biodiversity.
 

ScottB

7500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 5, 2018
Messages
7,873
Reaction score
12,155
Location
Fairfield County, CT
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
99% people with Dino is because they stripped all the PO4 or N4 out the water. The idea of chasing the magic numbers and constantly dosing and using reactors on everything from the get go will get you Dino. At least from what I read. It seems from when i took a break from the hobby in 2012 and now, we are conditioned more to dose more stuffs into the tank. It's worst now.
Dino is part of the reef ecosystem. It's a fact.
Can't argue with what you are saying, but there is some intersection here. Sure some are actively stripping with GFO and carbon dosing because they are told that is how to get rid of the uglies. With enough live rock, the uglies are a short phase. With dead rock, the uglies just go on and on.

Add to that the fact that live rock comes with some bound PO4 in it already. Whereas mined dead rock (like Marco, which I like) has no bound phosphate in my testing. So what little PO4 might exist in the new tank is bound up by the depleted aragonite, thus stripping the water.
 

thewire

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Oct 1, 2009
Messages
269
Reaction score
170
Location
Chantilly, VA
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Can't argue with what you are saying, but there is some intersection here. Sure some are actively stripping with GFO and carbon dosing because they are told that is how to get rid of the uglies. With enough live rock, the uglies are a short phase. With dead rock, the uglies just go on and on.

Add to that the fact that live rock comes with some bound PO4 in it already. Whereas mined dead rock (like Marco, which I like) has no bound phosphate in my testing. So what little PO4 might exist in the new tank is bound up by the depleted aragonite, thus stripping the water.
With dead rock, the ugly phase might last a little longer however the issue I believed can be mitigate with smaller bio load and feeding more sporadically. Just like everyone agreed that this hobby requires patient. Space out by adding more fish into the system so the system can gradually adapt to the loads we are putting in. However when people start to add too much into the system and the PO4 and N4 starts to add up even with water change, they starting to dose, and or use reactors.

Marco rocks do leach small amount of P04. You can get PO4 from left over food, dead materials as well, not necessary has to be from the rock.

In the end, IMO, it's a balancing act though. Under feed, low bio load may helps to reduce the amount of algae and ugly tank syndrome. Then again what do I know. I am still "newb" since I just got back from years of hiatus
 

ReefEco

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 12, 2017
Messages
722
Reaction score
779
Location
Truckee
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Yeah, it would be great to ultimately have maricultured rock be the norm. I assume one of the challenges in getting Indo-Pacific diversity into rock is that the islands that would produce it don't mine the raw material - i.e. they don't have access to the same type of "Marco rock" the states do, or it is not cost efficient for them to ship it in. One of the things about real live rock that makes it better is that it is significantly more porous than the mined rock put into the ocean and let cook in Florida. So it begs the question how the same dry rock we are starting our tanks with, then adding our own biodiversity in a controlled way, compares to maricultured rock that is currently available, and likely will be in the future. I doubt anyone will be able to access real dry formerly live rock (porous fiji, pukani, etc.) with increasing protections of reefs (a good thing) at scale and be able to culture it in a cost-effective way. That would be expensive rock - but maybe people would pay for it? Not sure. I do miss live rock, but am happy with the dry rock and adding biodiversity route, that is also more sustainable.
 

jda

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Jun 25, 2013
Messages
14,325
Reaction score
22,135
Location
Boulder, CO
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
There is no such thing as a pest free tank. This is over simplifying, but you really need to choose from a few crabs, aiptasia and maybe some macro from live rock, or dinos, diatoms, hair algae and probably more fish diseases from dry/dead rock. Also, if you are not going to have a legit, 100%, balls to the walls, coral QT, then your frag plug can have dictoya, bubble algae, aiptasia and anything else on it even if you dip and scrub.

Bacteria in a bottle is not diversity... it is just whatever bacteria is in the bottle. A few types of pods in a bottles is not a diverse set of pods.

If you really want to start sterile, then check out a wide ranging kit from Indo Pacific Sea Farms (ipsf.com) to hopefully get some sponge, stars, more pods, worms, protozoans, and who know what else. Even 4-8 ounces of sand/substrate from an established local reef would be a better start than bacteria/fauna in a bottle.

You can get both cultured rock from the gulf, keys and the pacific. Each have their own sets of pros and cons, but any one of them probably has more diversity than a decade of adding supplement.
 

ScottB

7500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 5, 2018
Messages
7,873
Reaction score
12,155
Location
Fairfield County, CT
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
There is no such thing as a pest free tank. This is over simplifying, but you really need to choose from a few crabs, aiptasia and maybe some macro from live rock, or dinos, diatoms, hair algae and probably more fish diseases from dry/dead rock. Also, if you are not going to have a legit, 100%, balls to the walls, coral QT, then your frag plug can have dictoya, bubble algae, aiptasia and anything else on it even if you dip and scrub.

Bacteria in a bottle is not diversity... it is just whatever bacteria is in the bottle. A few types of pods in a bottles is not a diverse set of pods.

If you really want to start sterile, then check out a wide ranging kit from Indo Pacific Sea Farms (ipsf.com) to hopefully get some sponge, stars, more pods, worms, protozoans, and who know what else. Even 4-8 ounces of sand/substrate from an established local reef would be a better start than bacteria/fauna in a bottle.

You can get both cultured rock from the gulf, keys and the pacific. Each have their own sets of pros and cons, but any one of them probably has more diversity than a decade of adding supplement.
+1 Pretty much where I come out on all this.

I will add that if you have good relations with a reputable LFS, you might be able to snag a little (super old) sump rock out of their super old reef display. IMO, there is some value there if the thing is covered in acropora.
 

dimsim

New Member
View Badges
Joined
Apr 5, 2020
Messages
7
Reaction score
5
Location
Oahu
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Yeah, definite no go on the Florida rock collecting. However, and don't quote me on this, but I've looked into collecting 'marine sediments' and am pretty sure that it's cool in small amounts (was thinking of 'transplanting core samples' for seeding dry/dead sand so to speak, the thought being that preserving the striated/layered microbial +infaunal invertebrate community might lead to better resettlement...). Anyways, maybe scoop some of that sweet sweet carbonate keys mud while you're down there eh??
 

HuduVudu

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Jun 2, 2020
Messages
3,241
Reaction score
3,660
Location
Houston
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I think the "no go" is collecting wild Florida rock yourself without a license. I assume the rock you got is cultured rock - i.e. mined dry rock put in the ocean for a period of time then harvested...
I'm confused. How is maricultured rock a no go? Especially from Florida which for many of us is literally a day away.

I've had the indo pacific wild collected rock from back in the day. The Florida maricultured is far better, at least for people in the U.S., for one simple reason. Time. The stuff I used to get was nasty and had a hell of cure time. At the time though this was light years better than the dead rock that was the norm at the time, but it still had it's issues.

IMO Florida maricultured is far superior for U.S. hobbyists even with a crap limestone base.
 

X-37B

Fight the Good Fight
View Badges
Joined
Sep 10, 2018
Messages
9,011
Reaction score
15,635
Location
Outer Limits
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I agree all live rock will have pests.
I will take and deal with some pests over 100% dead rock and bacteria in a bottle.
With that I started my 120 with 50% live rock and 50% caribsea.
Now at 1.5 years you cant tell the difference between the two except for the shapes of the caribsea.
Most of my rock is covered with coral now anyway.
I had almost no cycle and started adding coral after 1 month.
I will note that the caribsea rock was the only place the bad algae grew for a few months.
I have many friends that have alot of issues with the dead rock and blame it on other things while they throw in bottle after bottle of bacteria with no results.

My frag system is 90% live rock, with 2 pieces of dead purple rock, I collected from lfs that took it in when people broke down their tanks.

I still look for quality pieces today for my next system and just keep it in my sump now.
I am in the process of setting up a 40 breeder with 40 breeder sump just for the purpose of collecting live rock.
I will also add some select pieces of dry and turn it into live rock over a period of time.

I have a couple of pieces of the dead purple painted rock in my frag system that is 95% covered in coralline to the point that you can barely see the purple.
Its also growing sponge and feather dusters.
 
Last edited:

hubble

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Oct 28, 2017
Messages
227
Reaction score
233
Location
Tulsa
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Of all the tanks I've set up, the one's that I used Florida live rock were the most successful and best looking. The biodiversity with live rock is just outstanding..............
 

dimsim

New Member
View Badges
Joined
Apr 5, 2020
Messages
7
Reaction score
5
Location
Oahu
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Just got a shipment of Florida rock. How is it a no go?
OK, I guess I wasn't being very specific. What I meant was, from a legal perspective, you definitely would NOT want to cross paths with a DLNR officer while personally collecting/hauling away any amount of wild live rock from the ocean (at least in Florida).
The maricultured stuff that's available is different, in that the 3 or so companies selling it are harvesting from what are basically artificial reefs (mined limestone or man-made 'aragocrete') that they dumped onto leased seafloor plots years ago.
I'm a big fan of this practice, and even have this pipe dream of starting up my own similar operation somewhere outside the Gulf of Mexico (Puerto Rico perhaps? East Malaysia (Sabah) or Indonesia (North Kalimantan) come to mind...) to boost the benthic diversity of organisms available within the hobby. Of course, navigating the logistical hurdles + import/export regulations and laws would be completely daunting...
Oh yeah, also I'm broke haha... Any investors???? Yes/no??
(only kind of joking heheh)
 

X-37B

Fight the Good Fight
View Badges
Joined
Sep 10, 2018
Messages
9,011
Reaction score
15,635
Location
Outer Limits
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
OK, I guess I wasn't being very specific. What I meant was, from a legal perspective, you definitely would NOT want to cross paths with a DLNR officer while personally collecting/hauling away any amount of wild live rock from the ocean (at least in Florida).
The maricultured stuff that's available is different, in that the 3 or so companies selling it are harvesting from what are basically artificial reefs (mined limestone or man-made 'aragocrete') that they dumped onto leased seafloor plots years ago.
I'm a big fan of this practice, and even have this pipe dream of starting up my own similar operation somewhere outside the Gulf of Mexico (Puerto Rico perhaps? East Malaysia (Sabah) or Indonesia (North Kalimantan) come to mind...) to boost the benthic diversity of organisms available within the hobby. Of course, navigating the logistical hurdles + import/export regulations and laws would be completely daunting...
Oh yeah, also I'm broke haha... Any investors???? Yes/no??
(only kind of joking heheh)
Looks like TBS ocean plot is for sale. Just saw it posted a few hours ago.
 

Tired

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 29, 2020
Messages
4,016
Reaction score
4,104
Location
Central Texas
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
Somebody oughta buy some of that nice-shaped artificial rock that people love to build with, and put that in the ocean for a few years. That'd fetch a premium. The branches and all that.
 

Rython

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 30, 2017
Messages
237
Reaction score
210
Location
Oklahoma City
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
This is just opinion, worth exactly what you have paid for it so...

This burning desire to go "pest free" carries with it real downsides, some more long lasting than others. The cycle is the easy part that really cannot go wrong. But after that, the uglies can extend for many months. Still, those phases will pass, it just takes twice as long versus a majority live rock start.

While there will always be exceptions (and exceptional reefers who often defy the odds), dead rock starts really struggle to keep acropora even at 18-24 months.

Lastly, 90% of the folks in the mega dinoflagellate thread ("Are you tired..") started with dead rock, counting on bottled bacteria for "diversity". Creating a natural biome without any real Mother Nature just intuitively does not make sense to me. Especially in the beginning. Dinoflagellates were not really "a thing" back when live rock starts were the norm. 9,909 posts over almost 500 pages. It is the first thing I ask and the answer is almost always the same: dead rock.

I get your logic about colonizing some bricks in another system. It is a compromise with some probable value, just not sure how much. Bacterial film is good; it is just not everything you could do to start your biome.
I think what you're likely seeing there is correlation without causation. 90% had dry rock starts in that thread because 90% of hobbyists start that way in general now. Everyone I know here started with dry, and dinos haven't been a problem for any of them.

Are the two starts different? Sure. Even two different live rock starts can be wildly different. But "better" or "worse"? That's just preference.
 

ScottB

7500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 5, 2018
Messages
7,873
Reaction score
12,155
Location
Fairfield County, CT
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I think what you're likely seeing there is correlation without causation. 90% had dry rock starts in that thread because 90% of hobbyists start that way in general now. Everyone I know here started with dry, and dinos haven't been a problem for any of them.

Are the two starts different? Sure. Even two different live rock starts can be wildly different. But "better" or "worse"? That's just preference.
You make a fair point about dry rock and dinos. I've had dinos with live rock.

As to keeping acropora in the medium term (first 6-24 months) -- do you feel dead rock and bottled bacteria creates an equally viable biome?
 

Mastering the art of locking and unlocking water pathways: What type of valves do you have on your aquarium plumbing?

  • Ball valves.

    Votes: 74 51.7%
  • Gate valves.

    Votes: 73 51.0%
  • Check valves.

    Votes: 36 25.2%
  • None.

    Votes: 31 21.7%
  • Other.

    Votes: 9 6.3%
Back
Top