How best to cycle very old dried live rock with gulf rubble

[JoJosReef]

I got a hold of about 40 pounds of really old Marshall Island and Fiji rock that's been dry for about 5 years. This is real stuff, very porous, but obviously lacking everything that used to be in it. Ready to go into my new IM 40L AIO.

I would have loved to go with TBS rock again, but I didn't have budget for it. Instead, I have TBS rubble in my nano tanks and some TBS rocks (~5-10 lb) completely covered in coraline that I plan to add into the tank (that need bubble algae removal). I would like to know how best to get a lot of diversity into these rocks:

1. Will adding the TBS rubble in the tank in proximity to these rocks be enough to get all of the good bacteria populating the rocks? Or is some sort of bottled bacteria necessary?

2. If yes above, would you follow the standard cycling method, adding Tim's ammonia?

3. I have special grade dry sand. I am planning to add a bucket of Fiji Mud to mix in with the sand. Should I wait until everything is cycled or add the Fiji Mud at the start? I'm worried that the presumed microfauna wouldn't survive with ammonia in the system...

4. Can I take chips of coraline from my nano and drop them into the tank or glue them to the rocks to get that started? Should I wait a while and cycle with the lights off and then add the coraline chips with lights on?

I suppose if the answer to #1 is "No, bottle bac definitely necessary", then I just follow the regular cycling procedure with BioSpira/Microbacter/Tims, etc.

Would love advice on getting this tank started! Thanks!

 

[Timfish]

1. Yes and more importantly it should have starter cryptic sponges.

2. Don't bother with any bottle bacteria.

3. I would add everything at once.

4. Worth a try. You might alsotry crumbling some and drop in the tank.

This is similar to how I've been setting up tanks for decades without resorting to any additives and the initial cycle is usaually skipped (I can't say when I've last tested) and I'm adding easy corals on day two.

 

[Spare time]

The rubble + heater + pump should work. I like to toss some gfo in too just to prevent any decaying matter from causing the rock to adsorb a lot of phosphate. You can toss them in a bin or some buckets.

 

[mfinn]

I would go with the rubble and use a bottled bacteria product.
It's not going to hurt anything and will probably help.

The one thing I would be afraid to do is add any rock that had or has bubble algae to the new system.
Sure there are critters that eat it, but why add something that has a risk to it?

 

[JoJosReef]

I would go with the rubble and use a bottled bacteria product.
It's not going to hurt anything and will probably help.

The one thing I would be afraid to do is add any rock that had or has bubble algae to the new system.
Sure there are critters that eat it, but why add something that has a risk to it?

The TBS rubble that I have is in the back AIO chambers of a tank with bubble algae--it doesn't grow back there, but I guess could have "spores" or whatever Valonia uses to reproduce.

In the end, I have a big 10 gallon display rick structure that is getting transferred and has bubbles--will remove as much as possible, but they definitely go, since it is very valuable with gulf corals, tunicates, habitats for a lot of my critters, etc.

Hopefully bubble won't take off while the tank sets up for the big transfer.

 

[homer1475]

1. Yes and more importantly it should have starter cryptic sponges.

2. Don't bother with any bottle bacteria.

3. I would add everything at once.

4. Worth a try. You might alsotry crumbling some and drop in the tank.

This is similar to how I've been setting up tanks for decades without resorting to any additives and the initial cycle is usaually skipped (I can't say when I've last tested) and I'm adding easy corals on day two.

100% agree.

Only thing I might do differently is to crumble up the coralline into a powder, and add it into the tank. It tends to disperse everywhere and jump start growth in the entire tank as opposed to just specific spots.

 

[JoJosReef]

1. Yes and more importantly it should have starter cryptic sponges.

2. Don't bother with any bottle bacteria.

3. I would add everything at once.

4. Worth a try. You might alsotry crumbling some and drop in the tank.

This is similar to how I've been setting up tanks for decades without resorting to any additives and the initial cycle is usaually skipped (I can't say when I've last tested) and I'm adding easy corals on day two.

Yes, many many pineapple sponges and other stringy sponges! These rubble rocks are in the filtration chambers of my nanos.

Re: everything everywhere all at once... How about macros and corals? Do macros metabolize ammonia? How about corals? I have a few islands that could go in. I do want the corals to survive though.

Thanks!!

 

[lion king]

I would test for ammonia before adding any, you may get an ammonia spike from crusty die off even years later. I have reconstituted old rock and got just that, dosed ammonia before testing and got ammonia off the charts. I use bio Spira with great results.

 

[JoJosReef]

100% agree.

Only thing I might do differently is to crumble up the coralline into a powder, and add it into the tank. It tends to disperse everywhere and jump start growth in the entire tank as opposed to just specific spots.

Thanks! So would you go lights on, coraline in on day one? Or wait a bit, test and then add?

 

[homer1475]

Corals metabolize ammonia better then nitrates. As long as ammonia levels don't get wildly out of range(shouldn't with the addition of the live rubble), they will be fine.

 

[homer1475]

I would do all in on day one, including turning on the lights. Only thing I would not do is add fish for a few days to monitor ammonia levels(again should not be an issue with the rubble depending on how much your adding and to what volume of water).

 

[homer1475]

Coralline will not grow without lights. So yes to lights on on day one.

 

[JoJosReef]

1. Yes and more importantly it should have starter cryptic sponges.

2. Don't bother with any bottle bacteria.

3. I would add everything at once.

4. Worth a try. You might alsotry crumbling some and drop in the tank.

This is similar to how I've been setting up tanks for decades without resorting to any additives and the initial cycle is usaually skipped (I can't say when I've last tested) and I'm adding easy corals on day two.

One more question: what do the cryptic sponges do for the system initially? This is all going into display with lights on (although I could position the sponges in shadows). It is an AIO, so I won't have a sump, just filtration chambers.

 

[Timfish]

Yes, many many pineapple sponges and other stringy sponges! These rubble rocks are in the filtration chambers of my nanos.

Re: everything everywhere all at once... How about macros and corals? Do macros metabolize ammonia? How about corals? I have a few islands that could go in. I do want the corals to survive though.

Thanks!!

One more question: what do the cryptic sponges do for the system initially? This is all going into display with lights on (although I could position the sponges in shadows). It is an AIO, so I won't have a sump, just filtration chambers.

After reading multiple papers by multiple researchers I will not use macros in reef systems. Obviously there's a lot of corals that should not go in initially. But corals are manipulating the microbial processes to benefit themselves so I start off with easy one like actinodiscsoma mushrooms and Sinularia and Sarcophyton soft corals, you don't ahve to keep them long term and can move them out as you add others. Ammonia and urea from fish are corals preffered form on nitrogen.

Sponges are so essential I think it's a serious miscalcuation not to get them going as soon as possible. One of their functions is to convert tha labile DOC that can cause pathogenic shifts in coral microbiomes to DIC (HCO3, bicarbonate) that corals can use to grow.

Sorry to dump a data bomb on you but here's some links:


"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title (Paper back is ~$20, Kindle is ~$10), both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC in reef ecosystems. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems


Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes


Microbial view of Coral Decline


Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont


BActeria and Sponges


Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)


Optical Feedback Loop in Colorful Coral Bleaching


DNA Sequencing and the Reef Tank Microbiome


Richard Ross What's up with phosphate"


15 Answers



Element cycling on tropical coral reefs.
This is Jasper de Geoij's ground breaking research on reef sponge finding some species process labile DOC 1000X faster than bacterioplankton. (The introduction is in Dutch but the content is in English.)

https://www.rug.nl/research/portal/files/14555035/13completethesis.pdf

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Marine sponges are ubiquitous colonizers of shallow, clear-water environments in the oceans (1, 2). Sponges have emerged as significant mediators of biogeochemical fluxes in coastal zones by virtue of respiring organic matter and facilitating both the consumption and release of nutrients (3, 4)...

www.pnas.org

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

Coral reefs are highly productive ecosystems that raise a conundrum called “Darwin’s paradox”: How can high production flourish in low-nutrient conditions? We show here that in three abundant Caribbean sponges, the granules that have been commonly observed in sponge tissue for decades are...

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Differential recycling of coral and algal dissolved organic matter via the sponge loop.
Sponges treat DOC from algae differently than DOC from corals

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Surviving in a Marine Desert The Sponge Loop Retains Resources Within Coral Reefs
Dissolved organic carbon and nitrogen are quickly processed by sponges and released back into the reef food web in hours as carbon and nitrogen rich detritus.

(PDF) 2013 deGoeij Science Sponge loop

PDF | On Jun 23, 2015, Jasper M de Goeij and others published 2013 deGoeij Science Sponge loop | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

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Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)

Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)

Coral-excavating sponges are the most important bioeroders on Caribbean reefs and increase in abundance throughout the region. This increase is commonly attributed to a concomitant increase in food availability due to eutrophication and pollution. We ...

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The Role of Marine Sponges in Carbon and Nitrogen Cycles of COral Reefs and Nearshore Environments.

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[92Miata]

2. Don't bother with any bottle bacteria.

I think this is a question of "how nasty is the dried rock?" - if it's bad, and has a ton of organics in it, I'd want to use bottle bac just to keep the ammonia down so he doesn't kill any of the stuff hes trying to bring in on the TBS rock.

 

[JoJosReef]

I think this is a question of "how nasty is the dried rock?" - if it's bad, and has a ton of organics in it, I'd want to use bottle bac just to keep the ammonia down so he doesn't kill any of the stuff hes trying to bring in on the TBS rock.

The dried rock doesn't look nasty, but a bit dusty. The dried rock will take up 3/4 of the tank and the last 1/4 will be the big TBS rocks. The TBS rubble goes right in at the beginning.

I'll probably add a bit of BioSpira.

The biggest question I'm reading about right now is adding Fiji Mud to the display. I am thinking of mixing some in with the sand to get the sand and microfauna kick-started. BUT, I worry about (1) the fiji mud coming up in a gradient and becoming a mud storm, (2) bristle worms--does Fiji Mud introduce bristle worms (or worse, Eunicids) into the system? I like spaghetti worms and other helpful annelid and sipuncula worms, but bristleworms are not welcome and Eunice worms are impossible to remove. Also how much? 24oz Booster (aquacave) or get the 15 lb bucket from premiumaquatics?

Once everything settles and I get a few ammonia readings at 0, I'll move over the big TBS rocks/coral/nems/fish/inverts from my 10g and 13.5g tanks.

 

[Timfish]

I've reused old rock many times over the years and just rinsing it off works well. I've only used mud acouple times a long time ago and didn't have any issues but you can always spread it out breifly to check for worms.

 

[mfinn]

The biggest question I'm reading about right now is adding Fiji Mud to the display.

I tried Fiji mud years ago for a additive for the substrate in a refugium. I guess it worked ok, but I do remember that any time I had to get into the refugium ( thinning macro, planting new macro), if I disturbed the mud, it would send a huge cloud into the return pump and into the display tank. More of a pain than anything else.