How do I get my zoas to grow nice and fat?

[A. grandis]

Wants others to cool off while being hot headed.

Makes sense.

Wants me to be hot headed and has a funny mask on, as avatar.
How old are you, kid?
Makes sense.

 

[A. grandis]

@A. grandis can u tell me what kind of LED lights u tested?
It seems like u are 100% against LED if I read your messages and IMO you shouldn't.
Maybe off-topic for the topic starter but for me this topic is very informing and this kind of topics are very interesting!

Grtz,
Matthijs

I don't hate LEDs. You're wrong!

I don't agree with fake propaganda they do to try prove they are better than halides and T5s because they aren't any better! That's the wrong way to advertise! That is what I call to lie to the newbies that don't know better! Do you like that? Do you think that is right? Products that have to lie to sell aren't good as they claim, logically. Those who compare showing "better results" using specifically pictures of metal halides and T5s with wrong application. Bad character! Ask your parents what they think about that. If they say that's fine, then please ask your grandma.

You name any LED you want! They will not deliver the same light QUALITIES a halide can, only because they are different. Just like any halide will not deliver the same light QUALITIES that LEDs can. Is that too hard to understand?
To compare ANY LED to ANY halide in order to sell is ridiculous! And yet that is how they do! They know halides can deliver some things LEDs just can't. NOT BECAUSE HALIDES ARE BETTER! Just because they are different. Application will give you different results. That is the fact! Not a negative thing.

Do you prefer or are happy with your LEDs? That is great! I'm happy for you.
Name any LED you want: Kessil, Radion, Hydra, whatever... I personally think that those black boxes are great lights and I've spent months with them over a system. They worked better than other LEDs IMO. I've worked with many systems that had expensive LEDs over them too. I've seen amazing tanks with black boxes. One of the best LEDs in America is Orphek. Nothing against you or anyone using them. Let's get that clear!

Do you hate halides if you don't use them and talk about your LEDs' qualities? Am I saying that people that came insulting me here hate halides? No. They have some anger issues though. Starting with their names. LOL!!!

My posts with videos were specifically to answer to other posts.
If you try to read them carefully you will understand better.
Have fun with your lights! This is just a hobby after all.

 

[A. grandis]

Look at this beautiful system. They actually show the proper application for each light fixture in order to achieve it's best. Perfect height and intensity from the LEDs too.
Nothing wrong with it.

I just happen to like the results of growth on the left side.
If they would use a different T5 combo it would be way nicer IMO and even better growth/color.

 

[A. grandis]

and... if anyone wants to tell me that a halide 6500K doesn't give the VERY BEST COLORATION AND GROWTH compared to ANY other bulb in the market is also disagreeing with Dr. Sanjay Joshi and Mike palleta (see video). Go argue with them!!! LOL!!
BUT... that could be only his own preference, right? Or is that an actual proven fact? Is Mike lying in that video? Go ask him.
Maybe it's just a coincidence that I experienced the same results with my systems. That's why I completely agree with them. I prefer to agree with them than anyone else because I know for a fact they are saying the truth.
Up to you guys to decide. We all have different prospective of what is gonna be the best way for what we want to reproduce in our systems...
The stores will show to you what they want to sell. Keep that in mind. Nothing wrong in choosing what they sell, if that's what you want. So relative that way. Still a beautiful hobby. Don't let it perish for lack of true info though! The newbies are the future of this hobby!

 

[warlocktitan]

I don't hate LEDs. You're wrong!

I don't agree with fake propaganda they do to try prove they are better than halides and T5s because they aren't any better! That's the wrong way to advertise! That is what I call to lie to the newbies that don't know better! Do you like that? Do you think that is right? Products that have to lie to sell aren't good as they claim, logically. Those who compare showing "better results" using specifically pictures of metal halides and T5s with wrong application. Bad character! Ask your parents what they think about that. If they say that's fine, then please ask your grandma.

You name any LED you want! They will not deliver the same light QUALITIES a halide can, only because they are different. Just like any halide will not deliver the same light QUALITIES that LEDs can. Is that too hard to understand?
To compare ANY LED to ANY halide in order to sell is ridiculous! And yet that is how they do! They know halides can deliver some things LEDs just can't. NOT BECAUSE HALIDES ARE BETTER! Just because they are different. Application will give you different results. That is the fact! Not a negative thing.

Do you prefer or are happy with your LEDs? That is great! I'm happy for you.
Name any LED you want: Kessil, Radion, Hydra, whatever... I personally think that those black boxes are great lights and I've spent months with them over a system. They worked better than other LEDs IMO. I've worked with many systems that had expensive LEDs over them too. I've seen amazing tanks with black boxes. One of the best LEDs in America is Orphek. Nothing against you or anyone using them. Let's get that clear!

Do you hate halides if you don't use them and talk about your LEDs' qualities? Am I saying that people that came insulting me here hate halides? No. They have some anger issues though. Starting with their names. LOL!!!

My posts with videos were specifically to answer to other posts.
If you try to read them carefully you will understand better.
Have fun with your lights! This is just a hobby after all.

He has the points and I do concur to the thoughts and reasons.
I am very technical come to these things, I don't just get into the hype without checking the data or query about some new technology.
I did gone through the periods of Led fixation but results are inconsistent and when I fall back to T5 and rekindle with MH, with research to understand what the different technology aspect of thing, I just love how simple of thing can be achieve with outstanding result.
All you have to understand how corals biologically adaptation and naturally function then all you need is to control the schedulings intelligently that's all, no need to mess with your RGB setting to achieve so call profiles this and that.
ALthough in few years I can see Led technology advance to the point it can replace MH and T5 all together but that will take a while.
Life is all good as we take them just the way they are.

 

[warlocktitan]

and... if anyone wants to tell me that a halide 6500K doesn't give the VERY BEST COLORATION AND GROWTH compared to ANY other bulb in the market is also disagreeing with Dr. Sanjay Joshi and Mike palleta (see video). Go argue with them!!! LOL!!
BUT... that could be only his own preference, right? Or is that an actual proven fact? Is Mike lying in that video? Go ask him.
Maybe it's just a coincidence that I experienced the same results with my systems. That's why I completely agree with them. I prefer to agree with them than anyone else because I know for a fact they are saying the truth.
Up to you guys to decide. We all have different prospective of what is gonna be the best way for what we want to reproduce in our systems...
The stores will show to you what they want to sell. Keep that in mind. Nothing wrong in choosing what they sell, if that's what you want. So relative that way. Still a beautiful hobby. Don't let it perish for lack of true info though! The newbies are the future of this hobby!

add to the thought about MH 6500K, ATM due to RGB limitation capacity to produce true white light such as 5.5K-6.5K that why most Led user turn down the so called white light to control algae.
That why Led manufacturer like to advertising or promote their white light to 10K and above to shine away from true 6.5K
For years back to 40-50 years ago when first reef system back then depend on try and true 5.5-6.5K for coral growth although it will never match the color pop from Led over stimulate using Blue spectrums range but that it's just for eye candy.
To be balance when come to coral lighting I would say this use MH for healthy growth and add some pop using Led with intelligent schedules.

 

[Matthijs]

I don't get it why getting so pushy about showing the "truth".
First of all, there isn't such thing as "the BEST fixture" as everyone and everything has their own needs.
Why don't I have MH or T5? Not because the results aren't proven and they're probably the best lights color- and growthwise but because of electricity consumption and heat.
So no, T5 and MH aren't an option for me as in Belgium electricity is very expensive and I don't want to change 16 x t5 bulbs every year at 25euro a bulb.
T5 would cost me +-1400euro on electricity and +-400euro on bulbs.
Thats 1800euro just for lighting.
I dont even take count of a cooler to keep the temperature ok with the heat that the lights generate.
LED cost me a lot less as I run my lights 12h a day but ramp up/ramp down.
Let's say my LED cost me around 800euro/year on electricty.
Thats a difference of 1000euro a year.
Those prices are just quickly calculated and absolutely not accurate but just to make my point why for me T5 isn't better then LED even though the results MIGHT be better.
Corals adapt to the light it gets, that doesn't mean we make them suffer neither.
Same happens with human being that adapt to there environment.
Or are black people/white people happier because they're white or black?
Not a real comparision and probably you will flood me with information but I think people can choose for themselves what they like and want.
I have LED and had T5 (and MH in the beginning) in the past and FOR ME LED is the best option at this moment.
I have a nice sundown with fluoriscence in the evening that gives a relaxing feeling in my living room, they dont dissipate to much heat and the consumption is acceptable.

Btw, to finish here is a picture of my zoa in the tank under full LED, for me they look happy. What do you think? (Dont look at the sandbottom as I have some silicates in my water at this moment)

Ps : sorry for my English that is not perfect, thats a result of a human adapting to his environment and talking Dutch/French daily

Pss : I love this kind of conversations as long as everyone respects everyones opinion as we can only learn from eachother!

Grtz,
Matthijs

 

[juanrmattos]

I’m with @Matthijs and we dont need to go across the pond to find the example... Back in 2004 I imported from Canada a 700 gallon reef tank (Just because I wanted to have an Starfire made aquarium... But that is another story), the thing was 46” deep and there was not many options for lights that would allow me to go to that depth... In short, along with all the state of the art Deltec equipment, I also imported from Germany an Italian light fixture made by Sigiflo (Not sure the spelling is correct) and once the setup was up and running the electricity bill at home went from $ 200-ish to over $ 900... In 2009 I took this reef down because I could not foot that bill any longer. So as far as LED’s goes, they were one of the many reasons I decided to get back in the hobby (Circa 2012).

Anyway, I jumped into this thread because I was expecting to read about Fluffy and Puffy Zoas... Can we ???

 

[warlocktitan]

I don't get it why getting so pushy about showing the "truth".
First of all, there isn't such thing as "the BEST fixture" as everyone and everything has their own needs.
Why don't I have MH or T5? Not because the results aren't proven and they're probably the best lights color- and growthwise but because of electricity consumption and heat.
So no, T5 and MH aren't an option for me as in Belgium electricity is very expensive and I don't want to change 16 x t5 bulbs every year at 25euro a bulb.
T5 would cost me +-1400euro on electricity and +-400euro on bulbs.
Thats 1800euro just for lighting.
I dont even take count of a cooler to keep the temperature ok with the heat that the lights generate.
LED cost me a lot less as I run my lights 12h a day but ramp up/ramp down.
Let's say my LED cost me around 800euro/year on electricty.
Thats a difference of 1000euro a year.
Those prices are just quickly calculated and absolutely not accurate but just to make my point why for me T5 isn't better then LED even though the results MIGHT be better.
Corals adapt to the light it gets, that doesn't mean we make them suffer neither.
Same happens with human being that adapt to there environment.
Or are black people/white people happier because they're white or black?
Not a real comparision and probably you will flood me with information but I think people can choose for themselves what they like and want.
I have LED and had T5 (and MH in the beginning) in the past and FOR ME LED is the best option at this moment.
I have a nice sundown with fluoriscence in the evening that gives a relaxing feeling in my living room, they dont dissipate to much heat and the consumption is acceptable.

Btw, to finish here is a picture of my zoa in the tank under full LED, for me they look happy. What do you think? (Dont look at the sandbottom as I have some silicates in my water at this moment)

Ps : sorry for my English that is not perfect, thats a result of a human adapting to his environment and talking Dutch/French daily

Pss : I love this kind of conversations as long as everyone respects everyones opinion as we can only learn from eachother!

Grtz,
Matthijs

your points well made.

Love your Sunny D dominate the tank, nice healthy softie tank.

Matter of fact you can balance the growth and color with MH Led combo or T5 Led combo with intelligent MH or T5 running time.

I usually run 4 hours MH at noon and the led for 12 hrs including 2 hrs sun rise and 2 hrs sun set (combo MH and Led)
but 6-8 hours T5 at noon and the led for 12 hrs including 2 hrs sun rise and 2 hrs sun set (combo T5 and Led) on two of my frag tanks. I calculate out the electrical bill is slightly higher than full Led setup.

Also you can step down the wattage form 400W-250W to 175W-75W depend on tank size that's alone reduce more tank half of power consumption, use led power to supplement either MH and T5 for coral growth periods.

Many strategies to solve the heat and power consumption within reasons.
It's all about how can you manage the lighting in such fashion so that you can have best of both world.

 

[A. grandis]

Ok... I know how bad I am...
Heat and electricity excuses in most cases are a lack of understanding and performing wrong application when using halides.

Halides can be easily cooled off with good fans placed to circulate the air between the fixture and water surface. To try to be able to keep my tank like I have under T5s or halides I'll need basically the same amount of wattage using LEDs. Just to try... I can get an acceptable growth speed with LEDs, but absolutely not the color nor colony structure. Halides will give all 3 in an optimal level IMO.
Application of any fixture with the amount of wattage is a key to use them.
Ambient temperature using halides needs to be addressed more than using T5s or LED though. I just open the windows...
The worse mistake people make is to use more wattage and photoperiod with halides than they should/need, therefore ending up with a fat electricity bill.

I've said many times before, since 2010, to many friends around me that LEDs wouldn't last too long before people would realize how other lights have additional important properties to offer over them. I've tried LEDs even with planted tanks for many, many years just to know how much those fixtures lack in the long run. Only people that don't know better aren't able to notice. I'm talking about a higher level of keeping plants and corals, my friends. Not just newbies' hype seen at the LFS. Do you want to get serious about reefkeeping? I think it's time wake up and bring back what's best in lighting for our hobby. I do not sell halides nor T5s, so I'm not worried if you are really listening to my words here. BUT... if "they grow fine" and colors are "great"...

Here is a great example for you guys to understand. Planted aquarium hobbyists that are actually serious about what they do are also noticing that T5s will give what they need for their plants and prefer them over LEDs. ADA people know that. They still sell LEDs, if you want them.


Again, results matter! Choose yours and be happy.

LED "pop" from blue diodes is also ugly to MY eyes because it gives a tremendous artificial touch that the corals don't need. But it's actually a matter of taste. I'm so sorry to write all that, including my aestetics preferences. Just me. No flaming. Think what you want!
So I don't hate those LEDs. I don't hate the people using them.
So much money invested on LEDs... Is that really worthy in the long run? ONLY IF YOU ARE HAPPY WITH THE RESULTS! The tank is yours and no one has any business with your tank but you.

 

[juanrmattos]

Ok... I know how bad I am...
Heat and electricity excuses in most cases are a lack of understanding and performing wrong application when using halides.

Halides can be easily cooled off with good fans placed to circulate the air between the fixture and water surface. To try to be able to keep my tank like I have under T5s or halides I'll need basically the same amount of wattage using LEDs. Just to try... I can get an acceptable growth speed with LEDs, but absolutely not the color nor colony structure. Halides will give all 3 in an optimal level IMO.
Application of any fixture with the amount of wattage is a key to use them.
Ambient temperature using halides needs to be addressed more than using T5s or LED though. I just open the windows...
The worse mistake people make is to use more wattage and photoperiod with halides than they should/need, therefore ending up with a fat electricity bill.

Today, Maybe!!!... Back in the mid-late 90’s and early 2000’s we didn’t have a fraction of today’s technology available (Heck, not even social media was so good), even today we are still figuring out the best way to replicate nature by trials and errors and “if anything” 2 out of every 5 reef tanks are truly successful nowadays; our loved hobby has sadly become a “monkey see, monkey do” parade; most reefers are more interested in asking what water parameters are being used, or what dosage of certain elements, or what light PAR/schedule is a nice reef using, rather than try and learn what is best for their own tank.

Halides, T5’s or LED’s they are all good, the results from several people using the same choice of light is never the same... Simply because this “science” is not only about the lights.

I want to have a Zoanthids garden.... Anyone else?

 

[chefjpaul]

...

 

[A. grandis]

Today, Maybe!!!... Back in the mid-late 90’s and early 2000’s we didn’t have a fraction of today’s technology available (Heck, not even social media was so good), even today we are still figuring out the best way to replicate nature by trials and errors and “if anything” 2 out of every 5 reef tanks are truly successful nowadays; our loved hobby has sadly become a “monkey see, monkey do” parade; most reefers are more interested in asking what water parameters are being used, or what dosage of certain elements, or what light PAR/schedule is a nice reef using, rather than try and learn what is best for their own tank.

Halides, T5’s or LED’s they are all good, the results from several people using the same choice of light is never the same... Simply because this “science” is not only about the lights.

I want to have a Zoanthids garden.... Anyone else?

Yeah, we didn't have the fraction of today's technology available and yet the info in the mags and the tanks were way more advanced.
Greater part of the science is about the lights though IMO.
Get your zoanthid garden going...

 

[A. grandis]

...

I'm glad I'm not an expert. LOL!

 

[juanrmattos]

Yeah, we didn't have the fraction of today's technology available and yet the info in the mags and the tanks were way more advanced.
Greater part of the science is about the lights though IMO.
Get your zoanthid garden going...

Apologies, I didn’t mean any offense by quoting a sentence of your post, all I was trying to say is all these lights have proven results and they are bought by reefers according to preference and budget, the results are directly related to many other factors that go hand on hand with how we use them.

Im truly sorry your thread was abducted like this @_pabloperetti

 

[warlocktitan]

Ok... I know how bad I am...
Heat and electricity excuses in most cases are a lack of understanding and performing wrong application when using halides.

Halides can be easily cooled off with good fans placed to circulate the air between the fixture and water surface. To try to be able to keep my tank like I have under T5s or halides I'll need basically the same amount of wattage using LEDs. Just to try... I can get an acceptable growth speed with LEDs, but absolutely not the color nor colony structure. Halides will give all 3 in an optimal level IMO.
Application of any fixture with the amount of wattage is a key to use them.
Ambient temperature using halides needs to be addressed more than using T5s or LED though. I just open the windows...
The worse mistake people make is to use more wattage and photoperiod with halides than they should/need, therefore ending up with a fat electricity bill.

I've said many times before, since 2010, to many friends around me that LEDs wouldn't last too long before people would realize how other lights have additional important properties to offer over them. I've tried LEDs even with planted tanks for many, many years just to know how much those fixtures lack in the long run. Only people that don't know better aren't able to notice. I'm talking about a higher level of keeping plants and corals, my friends. Not just newbies' hype seen at the LFS. Do you want to get serious about reefkeeping? I think it's time wake up and bring back what's best in lighting for our hobby. I do not sell halides nor T5s, so I'm not worried if you are really listening to my words here. BUT... if "they grow fine" and colors are "great"...

Here is a great example for you guys to understand. Planted aquarium hobbyists that are actually serious about what they do are also noticing that T5s will give what they need for their plants and prefer them over LEDs. ADA people know that. They still sell LEDs, if you want them.


Again, results matter! Choose yours and be happy.

LED "pop" from blue diodes is also ugly to MY eyes because it gives a tremendous artificial touch that the corals don't need. But it's actually a matter of taste. I'm so sorry to write all that, including my aestetics preferences. Just me. No flaming. Think what you want!
So I don't hate those LEDs. I don't hate the people using them.
So much money invested on LEDs... Is that really worthy in the long run? ONLY IF YOU ARE HAPPY WITH THE RESULTS! The tank is yours and no one has any business with your tank but you.

BTW since you have more experience and run MH and T5 longer than I am.
What is your typical schedule of MH and or T5?
Love to hear from you so I can compare note for my research.
You can email me at [email protected]
I love to see your tank info of the whole system.
Thank you in advance.

 

[A. grandis]

Apologies, I didn’t mean any offense by quoting a sentence of your post, all I was trying to say is all these lights have proven results and they are bought by reefers according to preference and budget, the results are directly related to many other factors that go hand on hand with how we use them.

Im truly sorry your thread was abducted like this @_pabloperetti

I didn't take offense.
I think the market is putting LEDs too high, mainly because of their monetary value. Anyone can get a halide or T5 fixture for a fraction of the price of most LEDs. We all know that halides and T5s are much easier to use and to give amazing results. Yet, in the name of "better technology" we see the majority of sales towards LEDs. Market strategy to get more $ out of the same number of sales. It works.

 

[A. grandis]

BTW since you have more experience and run MH and T5 longer than I am.
What is your typical schedule of MH and or T5?
Love to hear from you so I can compare note for my research.
You can email me at [email protected]
I love to see your tank info of the whole system.
Thank you in advance.

I can give you the info here, so others will also get it. I don't want to keep writing many emails after this. LOL!
75gal with 20 gal sump and ATB skimmer. 10% water change when I can, like every other week. That's it!
T5s only: 6 bulbs from 11:00am to 8:00pm.
Halides/T5s: 4 XT5 bulbs from 11:00am to 8:00pm and 2 X 175W or 2 X 250W halides from 12:00pm to 4:00pm.
You can have halides only for 10 hours a day, etc... there are so many options for photoperiod.
There is no magic! You can use any Ks for halides. They will all give you better colors than any other type of bulb. T5 bulb combos can have ATI Blue Plus, ATI True Actinic, ATI Coral Plus, GE 6500K, Giesemann Actinic Blue,... I just don't use purple bulbs because I appreciate too much the slots to waste a space for purple color.
Half blue bulbs with half "white" bulbs is one of the best too. I've done so many combinations with halides and T5s in my life... they all worked amazingly. What is yours?

 

[warlocktitan]

I can give you the info here, so others will also get it. I don't want to keep writing many emails after this. LOL!
75gal with 20 gal sump and ATB skimmer. 10% water change when I can, like every other week. That's it!
T5s only: 6 bulbs from 11:00am to 8:00pm.
Halides/T5s: 4 XT5 bulbs from 11:00am to 8:00pm and 2 X 175W or 2 X 250W halides from 12:00pm to 4:00pm.
You can have halides only for 10 hours a day, etc... there are so many options for photoperiod.
There is no magic! You can use any Ks for halides. They will all give you better colors than any other type of bulb. T5 bulb combos can have ATI Blue Plus, ATI True Actinic, ATI Coral Plus, GE 6500K, Giesemann Actinic Blue,... I just don't use purple bulbs because I appreciate too much the slots to waste a space for purple color.
Half blue bulbs with half "white" bulbs is one of the best too. I've done so many combinations with halides and T5s in my life... they all worked amazingly. What is yours?

Thank you for sharing.
I also use Halides/T5s: 2 X 96 WATT SQUARE PIN CF Actinic bulbs with 2 X 175W 20K no name bulbs as I don't care much for brand name on one tank
For another frag tank I use ATI 6 bulbs (2 x ATI coral plus and 2 x GIESEMANN 54W TROPIC T5 BULB, 2x ATI Blue PLus) but recently been experiment with (2 x ATI coral plus and 2 x T5 HO 54W Full Spectrum + UV Grow Light, 2x 4FT T5 LED 36W Tube 460nm Blue light) compliment with 2 led strip lights.

Here is the link that I bought these experiment T5 bulbs

4FT T5 HO 54W Full Spectrum + UV Grow Light

FS54T5HOW Full Spectrum + UV 54W T5 LED

www.growlights.ca

4FT T5 LED 36W Tube 460nm Blue light - 2 Pack

F54T5HO-LED36R 460nm Blue 36W T5 LED

www.growlights.ca

 

[A. grandis]

Thank you for sharing.
I also use Halides/T5s: 2 X 96 WATT SQUARE PIN CF Actinic bulbs with 2 X 175W 20K no name bulbs as I don't care much for brand name on one tank
For another frag tank I use ATI 6 bulbs (2 x ATI coral plus and 2 x GIESEMANN 54W TROPIC T5 BULB, 2x ATI Blue PLus) but recently been experiment with (2 x ATI coral plus and 2 x T5 HO 54W Full Spectrum + UV Grow Light, 2x 4FT T5 LED 36W Tube 460nm Blue light) compliment with 2 led strip lights.

Here is the link that I bought these experiment T5 bulbs

4FT T5 HO 54W Full Spectrum + UV Grow Light

FS54T5HOW Full Spectrum + UV 54W T5 LED

www.growlights.ca

4FT T5 LED 36W Tube 460nm Blue light - 2 Pack

F54T5HO-LED36R 460nm Blue 36W T5 LED

www.growlights.ca

Thanks for the info! So nice that full spectrum+UV. They already have some UV, but that bulb must be great!!! Wild spectrum chart too! LOL! Nice!
I use to have 6000K Giesemann over my planted systems. Best bulbs I've had for plants, and the Super Flora. They are all great bulbs.
If you don't mind, what did you notice with those tropic+UV bulbs. I bet you're having a bit more growth and greater colors too. A little more algae? Please let us know.
Cheers!