How do I rid my tank of vibriosis?

[mdowney]

I had what I believe to be a vibrio outbreak wipe out most of my tank. I have a microscope on the way so I can confirm that it isn’t uronema.

I’ve removed what’s left of the fish. They’ve been in QT for a week, treating with Maracyn 2 + KanaPlex. There’s only three fish remaining out of 18. All same symptoms of red blotchy areas and skin lesions. Usually the mouth is wide open, making me suspect uronema. But Elliot from Marine Collectors tells me he thinks it’s vibrio.

1. If it’s vibrio, can I eliminate it from the tank without doing a full reset?
2. If it’s uronema, can I eliminate it from the tank without doing a full reset?
3. If I do a full reset, what do I do with the $15K worth of coral in the tank? I would have to set up a coral QT. Can I quarantine it and then move it back in without reinfecting the tank?

 

[HudsonReefer2.0]

Need the pro. @Jay Hemdal. Sry for the loss

 

[MnFish1]

I do not believe you can. A healthy fish should not necessarily get vibrio - absent an injury, etc. I would not worry about it - and - my guess is - you didnt have vibrio - but rather a protozoan/uronema. You cannot eliminate Uronema without a complete reset - and even with a complete reset - you cannot guarantee that the fish you bring in will not have it.

IMHO

1. Keep your parameters VERY VERY CLEAN
2. Buy fish from local sources if possible - that are eating/healthy, etc.
3. Otherwise - quarantine the rest (you didnt mention whether you did earlier or not) - of the fish that you buy - so there will be no sick fish added.
4. I'm not sure why you would think its a 'vibrio outbreak' - since - thats not normally the case - it sounds more like velvet or something like that - if you can answer the questions the Link in my signature - it might help us help you

 

[vetteguy53081]

Any pics on hand of the fish with suspect issue ?

 

[Chrisv.]

Maybe this is a situation where @AquaBiomics would be useful.

 

[mdowney]

my guess is - you didnt have vibrio - but rather a protozoan/uronema.

I'm starting to think the same. All of my fish were fine for months - no issues. Then I bought a pre-quarantined Naso Tang from Elliot at Marine Collectors, put it straight into the tank, and it died with these symptoms four days later. Elliot suggested that it must have been pre-existing Vibrio in my tank and the Naso just succumbed because it was stressed from shipping. He said newer tanks that were cycled with dry rock like mine (6 mos old) often have major outbreaks of Vibrio with similar symptoms. Fair enough.

Then 5 days later the White Tail Bristletooth got it. Then the Blue Hippo Tang. Then the Lawnmower Blenny. Then one of the clowns. Then the 3 Bimac Anthias. Then the Gem Tang... every day another fish died. I got them all moved to a hospital tank after the Blue Hippo and started them on Maracyn 2 + KanaPlex, but now I only have 4 of the 19 fish left: the sailfin, flamehawk, marine beta, and my melanarus wrasse looks like he's next.

1. Keep your parameters VERY VERY CLEAN

Not sure what you mean by clean parameters. The tank has been within recommended ranges. I've been trying to keep nitrates+phosphates near 10:1 per the Redfield ratio. That's been tough to manage. I dose Kalk, keep pH as close to 8.0 as I can (now recirculating the skimmer through a Co2 scrubber to boost it even higher) and keep Alk a little higher than norm in the 9-9.5 range. Everything else is fairly standard. I have been getting a lot of detritus in the sand over the last few weeks, somewhat suddenly.

3. Otherwise - quarantine the rest (you didnt mention whether you did earlier or not) - of the fish that you buy - so there will be no sick fish added.

Yeah, I QT'd all of my fish for min 45 days, following the Humblefish method with CP, General Cure, etc. I only recently decided to try Marine Collectors after watching a bunch of BRS videos that Ryan did with Elliot. That seemed even safer than doing it myself and worth the extra cost.

4. I'm not sure why you would think its a 'vibrio outbreak' - since - thats not normally the case - it sounds more like velvet or something like that - if you can answer the questions the Link in my signature - it might help us help you

That's the way I interpreted Elliot's description of it. He said Vibrio seems to be elevated in tanks started with bottle bacteria with dry rock and sand and that the vibrio can be rampant until the beneficial bacteria can overpower it. At least that's how I understood it.

 

[mdowney]

Any pics on hand of the fish with suspect issue ?

Here was today's victim. One of my favorites. They've all ended up with reddish areas like this with lesions or areas where the skin looks to have been "eaten" away. I really loved this fish.

 

[mdowney]

Any pics on hand of the fish with suspect issue ?

One other example. Not a great pic. This one had a red area around the abdomen.

 

[mdowney]

Maybe this is a situation where @AquaBiomics would be useful.

Yes, thanks. Humblefish suggested the same and I ordered their before+after kit. I also ordered a microscope on Amazon that should get here tomorrow so that I can scrape the FoxFace and see if it's Uranoma. Will report back here when I get results.

 

[Malcontent]

Tetracyclines bind to calcium and magnesium which often renders them useless. And KanaPlex is dosed at < 2 mg/L, well below the 50-100 mg/L recommended in Noga's book.

 

[vetteguy53081]

This looks like cryptocsryn irritants and would require coppersafe or copper power at 30 days treatment at therapeutic level 2.25-2.5 at 80 degrees

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I had what I believe to be a vibrio outbreak wipe out most of my tank. I have a microscope on the way so I can confirm that it isn’t uronema.

I’ve removed what’s left of the fish. They’ve been in QT for a week, treating with Maracyn 2 + KanaPlex. There’s only three fish remaining out of 18. All same symptoms of red blotchy areas and skin lesions. Usually the mouth is wide open, making me suspect uronema. But Elliot from Marine Collectors tells me he thinks it’s vibrio.

1. If it’s vibrio, can I eliminate it from the tank without doing a full reset?
2. If it’s uronema, can I eliminate it from the tank without doing a full reset?
3. If I do a full reset, what do I do with the $15K worth of coral in the tank? I would have to set up a coral QT. Can I quarantine it and then move it back in without reinfecting the tank?

What three fish survived?

There are a number of Vibrio that can infect fish, but all seem to be facultative infections, and require some predisposition to get started. Those issues can include; shipping stress, high organic loading, change in temperature, water quality issues, and apparently even copper use.

I have never seen a large number of fish in an aquarium contract Vibrio unless there was a pretty obvious environmental precursor.

If the cost isn't too high for you, I would consider Aquabiomics, just to try and get a handle on this - there are other facultative bacteria that could be at play here, and they supposedly can also screen for Uronema.

I do not see strong evidence to indicate that this is Uronema or any other protozoan.

I do NOT think that the tank will need a "full reset" - in 50+ years, I've never had to do that for either Uronema or bacterial issues.

Jay

 

[MnFish1]

I'm starting to think the same. All of my fish were fine for months - no issues. Then I bought a pre-quarantined Naso Tang from Elliot at Marine Collectors, put it straight into the tank, and it died with these symptoms four days later. Elliot suggested that it must have been pre-existing Vibrio in my tank and the Naso just succumbed because it was stressed from shipping. He said newer tanks that were cycled with dry rock like mine (6 mos old) often have major outbreaks of Vibrio with similar symptoms. Fair enough.

Then 5 days later the White Tail Bristletooth got it. Then the Blue Hippo Tang. Then the Lawnmower Blenny. Then one of the clowns. Then the 3 Bimac Anthias. Then the Gem Tang... every day another fish died. I got them all moved to a hospital tank after the Blue Hippo and started them on Maracyn 2 + KanaPlex, but now I only have 4 of the 19 fish left: the sailfin, flamehawk, marine beta, and my melanarus wrasse looks like he's next.

Not sure what you mean by clean parameters. The tank has been within recommended ranges. I've been trying to keep nitrates+phosphates near 10:1 per the Redfield ratio. That's been tough to manage. I dose Kalk, keep pH as close to 8.0 as I can (now recirculating the skimmer through a Co2 scrubber to boost it even higher) and keep Alk a little higher than norm in the 9-9.5 range. Everything else is fairly standard. I have been getting a lot of detritus in the sand over the last few weeks, somewhat suddenly.

Yeah, I QT'd all of my fish for min 45 days, following the Humblefish method with CP, General Cure, etc. I only recently decided to try Marine Collectors after watching a bunch of BRS videos that Ryan did with Elliot. That seemed even safer than doing it myself and worth the extra cost.

That's the way I interpreted Elliot's description of it. He said Vibrio seems to be elevated in tanks started with bottle bacteria with dry rock and sand and that the vibrio can be rampant until the beneficial bacteria can overpower it. At least that's how I understood it.

1. The reason to ask about parameters - is that bacterial infections are often associated with poor parameters like high nitrates, high organics. Just having a N ratio at a certain level does not mean that your Nitrate is not 100... Or that you don't have lots of dissolved organics (i.e. you said you had a lot more detritus recently - that must be coming from somewhere)?

2. I do not believe the theory that vibrio is more common in dry rock is at all correct and thus - I do not believe that vibrio in your tank was the cause of this problem.

3. As @Jay Hemdal said - there is vibrio (and mycobacterium marinium, and pseudomonas, etc) in many tanks - and the fish have no problems - so there would be no reason IMHO to expect you're going to be able to eradicate it (if its even there) - and if you do eradicate it - there is no guarantee that the next piece of coral, or fish or whatever that you add won't have it. I.e. - I wouldn't even think about going down that road.
4. Aquabiomics is a good idea - BUT - the problem is the false negative rate is 'unknown'. If they find something its pretty clear that its there. If its not there - who knows - it could be. If you do do a test - make sure you order the correct one - as there are a couple - make sure you get the pathogen one.

PS - Sorry - about your fish losses. And sorry for the long answer.

I personally would merely let the tank sit for a bit - watch the other fish, strongly consider getting your fish from an LFS - which decreases shipping stress, etc - and increases resistance to disease. But - of course - they are not always available - or have the stuff you might want.

Good luck going forward - and please keep everyone updated!