How do you get a large variety of bacteria?

kput

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I spend quite a bit of time on here reading, and I've across members (PaulB being one), posts, and articles that all stress the importance of different varieties of beneficial bacteria in the reef tanks. I understand the importance of a diverse bacteria colony, but my question is how do we grow the diversity of the colonies safely?

I'd imagine that adding sand, rock, etc to the tank can help.. But how do you do it safely, without introducing harmful pests and parasites as well? I rigorously quarantine everything. Fish for 2-week h202 TTM, coral/inverts for 76 days, to keep from introducing things I don't want in my display.
I live in Nebraska, so I can't walk out to the ocean and grab things to toss in the tank, so what other options do I have? My display is fairly young to me, however 70% of the sand and all the rock was established for 5 years when I purchased the tank.
 

SeaDweller

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Add probiotic bacterial supplements, or don’t overthink it and just do as most people do and don’t add anything.

I was adding microbacter 7 and dr Tim’s ecobalance weekly, and I think it spurred a cyano issue. I’ve since stopped. There’s a whole thread over in the sps forum if you care to read, it’s talking about this. People add stuff like Zeobak too. I think the thread is titled “Why can’t U keep SPS”
 

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There are many additives available for sale that are marketed to add bacterial diversity.

Most of the benefits are anecdotal as there's been little in the way of studies/data that indicate diversity is a goal we should be striving for or how it's something we can achieve long term let alone which strains are beneficial, which are not. It sounds good, which is why folks spend money on it and it could be a benefit. There is some better evidence that bacterial additives can be useful (but not necessary) in certain circumstances: cycling time reduction and algae control for example. However as a prophylactic treatment to ensure an otherwise healthy tank or livestock stays healthy there's little proof.

I tried MB7 to no benefit or harm that I found. You'll find others who swear by its (and similar products) benefits.

Best we can say with certaintity...probably doesn't hurt anything to use it and it may help....or not.
 
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Miller535

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I know there any many who would disagree, but with everything that I have read, you can't keep a ongoing diverse bacteria and fauna population without constantly adding it. Even Dr Shimek talked about this in one of his old articles. And who knows what strains of bacteria are compatible with others, or beneficial with others. While I think adding bacteria is helpful, I do not think it's the silver bullet that so many others seem to.
 

AquaBiomics

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Live rock and sand. Unfortunately there is little or no evidence that bottled products affect the microbiome.

What are the pests that have you worried? In my experience pests come in two varieties - overrated and inevitable :)
 

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Live rock and sand. Unfortunately there is little or no evidence that bottled products affect the microbiome.

What are the pests that have you worried? In my experience pests come in two varieties - overrated and inevitable :)

I like that, overrated and inevitable! So true.
 

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I had cyano on my sand. Also I has STN on my acropora. I tried all sorts of things. I finally added a cocktail of different bacterial additives and both the STN and cyano went away. But it could have just been a coincidence.

If you start with dry rock, adding some supplements after cycling might help. But I think that once established, the bacteria will largely persist.
 

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Without adding new strains all the time you will end up with just a few dominate strains. If its diversity you want without a lot of pests then ocean water might be helpful. Over all, live ocean rock is prob the most diverse in bacteria population. Adding bottled strains are limited to just what they have in the bottle. I would have to guess that MB7 has 7 strains of bacteria and enzymes.
 
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kput

kput

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Live rock and sand. Unfortunately there is little or no evidence that bottled products affect the microbiome.

What are the pests that have you worried? In my experience pests come in two varieties - overrated and inevitable :)
Not worried about any in particular, I've just seen a lot of information lately pointing towards a good diversity leading to a healthier tank. I have used MB7 for QT and cycling and it seemed to be much more effective than other bac-in-a-bottles, I guess occasionally I'll just have to dump some in.
 

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I spend quite a bit of time on here reading, and I've across members (PaulB being one), posts, and articles that all stress the importance of different varieties of beneficial bacteria in the reef tanks. I understand the importance of a diverse bacteria colony, but my question is how do we grow the diversity of the colonies safely?

I'd imagine that adding sand, rock, etc to the tank can help.. But how do you do it safely, without introducing harmful pests and parasites as well? I rigorously quarantine everything. Fish for 2-week h202 TTM, coral/inverts for 76 days, to keep from introducing things I don't want in my display.
I live in Nebraska, so I can't walk out to the ocean and grab things to toss in the tank, so what other options do I have? My display is fairly young to me, however 70% of the sand and all the rock was established for 5 years when I purchased the tank.

You cannot believe everything you read, especially anecdotal information. Bacteria in the aquarium right now is a new fad. Diversity likewise. What is diversity really? Who has even defined what “good” diversity is? How do you measure it? How important is it? Who has provided scientific information to back what they are saying or selling. Few if any because data cuts two ways. It can support an idea or product, but it will also raise many questions and doubts about the claims. This is why vendors never, ever provide data about their equipment or additives. Read carefully what everyone, including vendors, are saying. Most of it could be 100% baloney and yet it will sound so good, so reasonable.

Enjoy your aquarium. Read books, go easy on internet as an information source.
 

AquaBiomics

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You cannot believe everything you read, especially anecdotal information. Bacteria in the aquarium right now is a new fad. Diversity likewise. What is diversity really? Who has even defined what “good” diversity is? How do you measure it? How important is it? Who has provided scientific information to back what they are saying or selling. Few if any because data cuts two ways. It can support an idea or product, but it will also raise many questions and doubts about the claims. This is why vendors never, ever provide data about their equipment or additives. Read carefully what everyone, including vendors, are saying. Most of it could be 100% baloney and yet it will sound so good, so reasonable.

Enjoy your aquarium. Read books, go easy on internet as an information source.
I wholeheartedly appreciate a skeptic - regardless who is right, its good for the conversation.

You asked how do you measure it - ecologists typically use species richness or alpha diversity to describe this. Its simply the count of species (or types, depending how you slice the data). In the hobby we tend to shorten this to simply "diversity". I think you know all this, I am just clarifying for readers without a biology background that what we call "diversity" is not a term made up by hobbyists, but rather an important aspect of ecosystems that ecologists have focused on for a century or so.

There have been a handful of these "convince me diversity matters" posts lately, and I must confess I'm always a little surprised. A century or so of ecological research in a wide range of systems has shown that diversity in general is associated with productive and resilient ecosystems. Which is to say, ecosystems that process a lot of nutrients, promote a lot of growth, and don't crash when conditions change a little bit. This includes studies of natural coral reef ecosystems, by the way.

Adding bottled products to the tank in an effort to promote diversity is a new fad. Valuing biological diversity is as old as the field of ecology itself. The farthest thing from a fad.

I totally get that we don't know the exact ideal number yet. And I think its very important to note that diversity is far from everything -- it is only one of the many statistics that ecologists use to describe communities. But to reject diversity altogether as a valuable description? That would seem to be rejecting the importance of the microbial community altogether, which I don't think any of us really believe.
 

Dan_P

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I wholeheartedly appreciate a skeptic - regardless who is right, its good for the conversation.

You asked how do you measure it - ecologists typically use species richness or alpha diversity to describe this. Its simply the count of species (or types, depending how you slice the data). In the hobby we tend to shorten this to simply "diversity". I think you know all this, I am just clarifying for readers without a biology background that what we call "diversity" is not a term made up by hobbyists, but rather an important aspect of ecosystems that ecologists have focused on for a century or so.

There have been a handful of these "convince me diversity matters" posts lately, and I must confess I'm always a little surprised. A century or so of ecological research in a wide range of systems has shown that diversity in general is associated with productive and resilient ecosystems. Which is to say, ecosystems that process a lot of nutrients, promote a lot of growth, and don't crash when conditions change a little bit. This includes studies of natural coral reef ecosystems, by the way.

Adding bottled products to the tank in an effort to promote diversity is a new fad. Valuing biological diversity is as old as the field of ecology itself. The farthest thing from a fad.

I totally get that we don't know the exact ideal number yet. And I think its very important to note that diversity is far from everything -- it is only one of the many statistics that ecologists use to describe communities. But to reject diversity altogether as a valuable description? That would seem to be rejecting the importance of the microbial community altogether, which I don't think any of us really believe.

Great clarification! I wondered if you were going to have the time to drop in.

The use of the term “diversity“ is over used and has become another hobby buzz word. Sure you can spend money to have it measured, but “so what” and “now what” have to be considered. Data is at its most useful when it can address “so what” does diversity mean with regard to my aquarium management goals and “now what” can or should I do now that I have the data. As Randy has pointed out, though not quite in these words, the “so what” and “now what” are poorly understood for aquarium maintenance. And while diversity is a well established concept in the field of ecology, exactly what it entails for aquarium maintenance is a definition in progress. I would like to acknowledge the work you have done and shared with us demonstrating how bacterial diversity in aquaria can be influenced, which definitely addresses the “now what” question In a big way.

Looking forwards to your future reports.

Dan
 

YankeeTankee

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Microbial diversity comes most easily from live rock/sand as stated above. As for if it really helps, @AquaBiomics wrote an article showing wild live rock being less prone to algae. Of course he only had a few tanks running for the test, and he is part of the "industry" but his theories pass the science smell test (they do to me at least) so I think he's based his biz in truth and far more importantly since his message aligns with my anecdotes ;), I tend to believe him. Take for instance dinos, way fewer tanks started with live rock end up with dinoflagellates, I think that's been quasi-established.

I suspect rock that has been long submerged in seawater may have other benefits aside from just microbial diversity which could be as simple as every last thing that's not in seawater has been leeched out of it but that's an anecdote for sure.

I'm sure bottled bacteria will improve in time, and I'm talking about the one and done type because it can survive in an aquarium not these strains that disappear after a day which requires you to be buying more every week!

For my next build I'll probably use live rock but may just for funzies, try to seed dry rock with water that's been forcefully run through live rock and then a filter to catch critters except those wee little magical bacteria. Then let that sit in a warm saltwater bath for a few solid months with small feedings.
 

raketemensch

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Did you see this article?

 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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I spend quite a bit of time on here reading, and I've across members (PaulB being one), posts, and articles that all stress the importance of different varieties of beneficial bacteria in the reef tanks. I understand the importance of a diverse bacteria colony, but my question is how do we grow the diversity of the colonies safely?

I'd imagine that adding sand, rock, etc to the tank can help.. But how do you do it safely, without introducing harmful pests and parasites as well? I rigorously quarantine everything. Fish for 2-week h202 TTM, coral/inverts for 76 days, to keep from introducing things I don't want in my display.
I live in Nebraska, so I can't walk out to the ocean and grab things to toss in the tank, so what other options do I have? My display is fairly young to me, however 70% of the sand and all the rock was established for 5 years when I purchased the tank.

There’s no clear evidence that having more diverse types of bacteria is helpful, but adding unusual types of bacteria would likely promote the possibility of having a more diverse set. Natural seawater and sediment, water and objects from other tanks, different types of fresh and frozen marine foods, etc.
 

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