How I am beating Cyano without chemcials or GFO reactor

[Bdog4u2]

Cyano feeds of the substrate just as much as the water column. It creates a mat to cover it's food source to keep it all to itself and it can feed on nutrients from freshly made saltwater. High flow isn't a cure it's more for preventing since it helps keep detritus in suspension to be mechanically removed because if it settles it's a perfect place for cyano to make its home. I have some live rock that has been dry for 10 years that I started re curing a few months ago. I have it on my porch where there's sunlight and it has cyano growing on it even though it wasn't introduced by frags or fish

 

[Ted_C]

I have read that you might be showing zero phosphates because the Cyano is consuming it, causing it to grow, but keeps it undetected on a test kit. Maybe now you see it receding because of the positive effects of the water changes.

I appreciate the detailed post! Interesting!

I have read this too which is why I'm skeptical of the phosphates statement in general. Cyano is a funny creature - have you ever noticed how it recedes at night and blooms when the lights are on? Now couple that with the phosphates statements. Has everyone always taken their readings during the day when the cyano is in full swing consuming whatever it is they consume and never at night to get that zero phosphates reading?

 

[Ted_C]

Your feeding schedule makes me feel like I severely underfeed my fish.

Smaller meals more frequently are healthier than one big meal or so I've been told. There's alot of fish to eat that food as well. Add to that the anthias which require multiple feedings a day due to their metabolism and their small storage.

The amount of food I put in the 300 - at least the morning and evening frozen food feedings - is all gone in under two minutes.

The old rules you might read where "the food should all be consumed in 5 minutes" is not (in my opinion) what you should be shooting for. All food should be consumed in under two minutes and feed more often.

Remember too - like I said before - every tank is different. Please dont start feeding like this unless you test out "all food in under two minutes."

 

[Ted_C]

I hear "water change every two weeks" and I'm thinking, that just isn't going to happen. I love this hobby, but my wife thinks that I spend too much time on my tanks now, add that kind of a maintenance schedule and it's over. I use GFO/Carbon and have a 20 gallon Chaeto chamber in my sump. I started with live Pukani rock (maybe that has helped) and...knock on wood...no Cyano.

There's two things here: You have to make it easy for yourself to perform water changes. The 2nd thing is that might not be possible with the other 1/2. It can get expensive.

I have two mixing stations in my house near the tanks. Each produces it's own ro/di water from two spectrapure uhe 100's (all told - I would think each mixing station ran me around $1200-$1300 dollars). I drain the tank's sumps into laundry basins using a hard plumbed external pump that normally re-ciruclates sump water but can be diverted to the laundry basin. Then I just fill the sump back up with fresh salt water.

 

[clsanchez77]

My hypothesis is cyano grows over dead algae. Its grown on the back glass over old hair algae. I think its consuming some organic.

So if gfo doesnt work at first, or makes it worse, its because the algae is dying and the cyano is using it. So if you continue with low enough po4 then eventually all its food will be gone.

A very interesting and intuitive, yet not obvious hypothesis.

I am battling a pretty big cyanno outbreak now and will be following this thread. I am relatively new hear and have not posted by build thread yet, but its detailed on our local reef club. I started dosing H2O2 last week and am not seeing a change yet. My tank is "different" from most reef tanks as I also feed very heavily, I sustain a large macro algae population in the DT and every knook and cranny is populated with fan worms, sponge and NPS corals and clams that came with the rock. I seem to be the only person still using aquaculture rock these days

I have not posted a thread on the topic yet because one, I absolutely loathe the club of people who regurgitate the same lines whether applicable or not. Secondly, people like to correlate post counts with experience so I rather not waste my time or anyone else time. I have seen the same "nitrates", "phosphates", "overfeeding", correlations over a long time and they don't hold water. This hobby was not cookie cutter 20 years ago when I first got into it and it certainly is not anymore so now.

Regarding my tank, it is a 110 tall gallon primarily mixed reef of LPS, gorgonias and Atlantic NPS corals. The tank is currently fed 9 '1/2 cubes' of frozen food I blend myself (Mysis, Plankton Krill, Calanus, Cyclops, Daphnia, Fish Eggs, Oyster-Feast, Golden Pearls, Spirulina, Phyto-Feast). The tank gets extra feedings when I am home. I auto change 1 gallon of water daily but also do a bucket water change each weekend when I vacuum the sandbed. I also blast the rocks with a MJ1200 once a week and then put the Vortechs into NTS mode. Speaking of, the tanks has 2 MP-40s that run in tidal swell mode 24/7, except when in NTS mode. The intensity varies from 50% to 90%. I will concede that the deep tank and having LPS/gorgonias does create a dilemma in that the MP40s had to be positioned high and dont have enough power to clean the sand bed...however that does not explain the cyanno on the rocks. My socks are currently changed every 3-4 days (twice a week) and my skimmer runs on the dry side. I do run GFO but not carbon. I run a 6 gallon fuge with 50 watts of Photo Red LEDs and a very large matt of chaetomorpha. I have far less fish than you.

What I observed to be the trigger for cyanno in my DT was when I made some changes to the refugium...cleaned it up, replaced the chaeto and boosted the lighting. The chaeto exploded from a ziplock snack bag from a fellow area reefer to a bucket full. The algae in my DT crashed overnight. The cyanno showed up on a few days later. This is why I highlighted the quote above.

I am currently dosing H2O2 without the success of others. I have confirmed cyanno by microscope. I suspect have too much other things in the tank consuming the H2O2 and am discussing this on another board. I will increase the sock change up to two days (I have 8 pairs) and I may set the skimmer back to a wet skim. I will also increase the manual removal to perhaps twice a week. My plan is to not use chemiclean as I have way too much microfauna that I don't want to risk. I also have the macro algae now recovering again so I hope to have it outcompete the cyanno.

 

[clsanchez77]

Smaller meals more frequently are healthier than one big meal or so I've been told. There's alot of fish to eat that food as well. Add to that the anthias which require multiple feedings a day due to their metabolism and their small storage.

I have chromis and grammas that are very similar. I currently spread my feedings over 3 per day, 4 on weekends and holidays. I plan to switch to liquid foods on a doser in place of feedings and this will cover everything except the mysis. I have a theory that a more steady state approach to feedings will allow the aquarium and inhabitants to process more food efficiently.

 

[twreefer]

As soon as I switched to Zeovit, I had Cyano everywhere for the first time. Nine months later, I still can't get rid of it.

 

[Bob agren]

Use to have this issue of my 200 gal. Put a AI led light on my Sump it grew massive amounts of cheto with a 0 phosphates available so my test kit measured. Like previous post I think there are non-detectable amounts in the water that promotes cyanocobalamin. Toss about a 5gal bucket every 2 to 3 months of cheto just for room in my Sump. Shake all the pods out first before tossing it.

 

[tdileo]

Out of curiousity, why don't you want a reactor? I was thinking about purchasing a GFO/Carbon one for my tank since I've been reccomended it

 

[Fritzhamer]

I had really bad cyano until I put in a fuge with some cheato. I run two epic growlight bulbs on it on an opposite schedule. I threw away a half garbage bag of cheato today. Literally. This is three months worth.

I think it mostly is balancing the levels. I have the fuge in the first bay of my sump which means it catches all the detritus. It's a biological, mechanical and again biological filter. It has to be a nitrate factory and it also has to be consuming a good amount of phosphate as well. I suspect that the uptake of PO4 coupled with a likely nitrate factory is what has caused my cyano to disappear.

Before this I tried dosing elixirs, running GFO and carbon, Biopellets, etc. It all got worse until I started the heavily lit cheato.

For what it's worth this is less than half of what was in my sump. The fuge section is about half of a 20 long filled to seven inches. It grows in there really, really thick. Almost to the point of obstructing the flow form the drain line.

 

[Specblue]

Ive also have been having some of the same issues. I recently cut back on my white light run time, turned up my return pump gph and cut back a little on the amount of frozen food I feed at one time. I seeing some improvements, but it's only been a week or so. Thanks for your thoughts. I'll keep watching to see how it works out. Thanks

 

[Mr.Brightside]

Two questions for the OP, what is your filtration system like? And what's your PH and KH at?

 

[clsanchez77]

When I switched my Refugium Light from white LEDs to Photo LED's, my chaeto took off. I now produce as much as @Fritzhamer. I only have 11 LED's at 700 mA so it only uses 20 watts of power.

 

[smokin'reefer]

I had a strange observation after treating with Chemiclean.
I have a couple 92 gallon twv is 126 and I was having a cyano and what I believed to be a spirolina surge. Same case, 0 nitrates and 0 phosphates. I tried the usual, increase flow, manual remove for a while, but it was taking over.

I decided to do the Chemiclean treatment followed by a 14 day h2o2 regimine. It took care of the cyano but now I am having a gha spike.

That kinda goes along with what you were saying about cyano growing over gha. Keeping it in check.

Alright, here's the rub. My daughters tank, a 29 gallon biocube, had been having issues with gha and maybe bryopsis for some time. I had neglected that tank while focusing on my 92.

I decided to hit that tank with flucanzole. It has taken care of the algeas. Well guess what? Now I am getting a cyano bloom in that one.

In my mind, lack of experience and all, can't help but think that confirms the tie between the two.

I was reluctant to go the the chemical treatments at first and now I am sure that's not the answer for me. I am going to take the op's advise and try his routine til things get back in balance.

 

[AcroJack]

I had a strange observation after treating with Chemiclean.
I have a couple 92 gallon twv is 126 and I was having a cyano and what I believed to be a spirolina surge. Same case, 0 nitrates and 0 phosphates. I tried the usual, increase flow, manual remove for a while, but it was taking over.

I decided to do the Chemiclean treatment followed by a 14 day h2o2 regimine. It took care of the cyano but now I am having a gha spike.

That kinda goes along with what you were saying about cyano growing over gha. Keeping it in check.

Alright, here's the rub. My daughters tank, a 29 gallon biocube, had been having issues with gha and maybe bryopsis for some time. I had neglected that tank while focusing on my 92.

I decided to hit that tank with flucanzole. It has taken care of the always. Well guess what? Now I am getting a cyano bloom in that one.

In my mind, lack of experience and all, can't help but think that confirms the tie between the two.

I was reluctant to go the the chemical treatments at first and now I am sure that's not the answer for me. I am going to take the op's advise and try his routine til things get back in balance.

Sounds like you are playing the nutrient "whack-a-mole" game... when you kill one, generally it will release what it was growing on (po4, Fe, nitrate, etc) and that will then cause another bloom of some other simple organism with a fast reproductive rate. Perhaps try to couple your treatment with some method of export and see what happens. I'd be curious to see what difference that makes for you. Best of luck, we've all been there!

 

[Fritzhamer]

In my experience its a slow process to get it out. While much of the PO4 may be bound up in the cyano, it also may be bound up in the sand and rock. If I recall, PO4 is pretty scarce in the ocean and in high demand. Any free PO4 would likely get grabbed up by an organism or possibly be absorbed by the rocks and sand. I think why when one algae is killed another nuisance algae immediately fills the void is that we're treating the symptom rather than the problem. Getting all that PO4 out of the sand and rocks is going to take time and until then there will be nuisance algae.

Twelve years ago or so I was talking about this with a then research biologist. His theory was that people fed frozen food (back then notoriously high in PO4) and added it in other ways as well. All this PO4 would get bound up in the sand and rock until it hit some saturation point. At the saturation point it would be detectable in the water (at least in higher levels). The issue now became that as you removed PO4 from the water, the sand and rocks would continue to leach PO4 back out into the water column, often for weeks or months.

It seems more recent research, or perhaps lore, is that having an imbalance of nitrates to PO4 creates the environments where these nuisance algaes flourish and can thus out compete other macro algaes. My cyano was worst when I was dosing the nitrate removing elixirs and running biopellets. When I pulled the pellets and stopped dosing it backed off. I ran GFO for a little bit then decided to go old school with the fuge. I've gotten it to a point where nothing can out compete the cheato. I don't even clean the glass anymore, maybe once every two weeks. That's with three snails on a 90 gallon. I think the growth is due to higher than low nitrates. I don't test for the reasons outlined on the BRS videos, I just wouldn't trust the results. I do test PO4 and I always have some. I think the presence of a nitrate factory however provides a balance where macro algaes can flourish.

 

[smokin'reefer]

Sounds like you are playing the nutrient "whack-a-mole" game... when you kill one, generally it will release what it was growing on (po4, Fe, nitrate, etc) and that will then cause another bloom of some other simple organism with a fast reproductive rate. Perhaps try to couple your treatment with some method of export and see what happens. I'd be curious to see what difference that makes for you. Best of luck, we've all been there!

Thanx. I thought my observation was right in line with what ted was saying.

I hate to put my ignorance on display, but its hard to hide sometimes.

When you said combine with some method of export- are you referring to like a protein skimmer or water changes or are you talking manual export via vacuuming sand bed and hand removal. My new plan is to put filter sock changes on a regular cycle, 3 days, and move to weekly wc's when possible due to work schedule.

Is there another method you are referring to or can recommend.?

 

[Hypnotic]

Cyano is so weird

I agree that each tank is different - enjoyed the article from Mike and Sanjay on reefbuilders, especially their strategy of finding commonalities and thus I'm sharing mine for what it's worth.

Between young kids, wife, and workaholicism, I have little time for my tanks (38G and 75G about 1 1/2 years old).

I observe often and measure occasionally.

Both have had cyano outbreaks. I treat with chemiclean and it goes away for a few months.

3 months ago, I decided to start throwing out the Chaeto I have growing in both tank's refugium. After doing this, I have noticed the cyano to start to withdraw without the use of chemiclean. It was pretty neat and a simple solution for me. So as mentioned above already.

+1 for chaeto export of PO4.

 

[Ted_C]

Out of curiosity, why don't you want a reactor? I was thinking about purchasing a GFO/Carbon one for my tank since I've been recommended it

what does a reactor really do? GFO strips phosphates. Carbon strips organics. Biopellets strip nitrates. We buy these gimmicks and employ them in our tank and sometimes do more harm than good. Got tangs? better be careful with that carbon reactor. Got SPS? better be careful with the GFO reactor.

Two questions for the OP, what is your filtration system like? And what's your PH and KH at?

Filter socks and skimmer. pH is running 8.2 to 8.3 and the dkH has been pretty consistent around 8.5. Again - I work more off of observation than I do test kit results.

Sounds like you are playing the nutrient "whack-a-mole" game... when you kill one, generally it will release what it was growing on (po4, Fe, nitrate, etc) and that will then cause another bloom of some other simple organism with a fast reproductive rate. Perhaps try to couple your treatment with some method of export and see what happens. I'd be curious to see what difference that makes for you. Best of luck, we've all been there!

This! (to an extent). I like this. Whack a Mole. That's a very good analogy. You wipe one nuisance out only to be replaced by a 2nd. My 150 gallon was like this. Dinos (brought under control via the dirty method) / the dirty method promoted Bubble Algae to get out of control / cleaned everything up and promoted Cyano to get out of control.
One suggestion I'm going to make though - I think it's all biological competition rather than one nuisance feeding the next nuisance. When you eradicate one nusiance - this allows a foothold for the next nuisance because it doesn't have it's natural competitors. That means we aren't reproducing a natural environment.

While I appreciate all the posts regarding using Algae Export (Chaeto etc - I used this in my 120 gallon and it worked well) - what I'm trying to do here is see if this can be beat without chemicals (no chemiclean) and through husbandry alone (no chaeto). The 150 is looking really good - but it's got less than 1/2 the amount of food going into the 300 and it's got only three fish (a purple tang and two small maroon clowns). So the change in routine seems to have helped this tank. The 300 - well that's an ongoing battle that will probably take longer to stabilize.

We've all probably also heard the phrase "masking the problem." You're overfeeding and your masking the problem by exporting chaeto. That's way to broad and generalized to be useful to a hobbyist. What does it mean? Is the overfeeding collecting detritus and the detritus is rotting allowing the chaeto to grow? Many times too we see a cause/effect relationship that's a false positive. Sure, we can describe the natural process of a lagoon and how it can sequester organics that are harmful to SPS and compare that to chaeto export of nutrients - but is that really what's happening in the ocean and our tanks?

What I really really want is an SPS tank that's fed by my fish's poo that's as natural as I can make it while avoiding the major nuisances I've seen in the past (vermetid snails, aptasia, dino's).

 

[Donovan Joannes]

I am with you @Ted_C. I am a firm believer on nature's ability in creating a balance system on its own. I have been able to run my system naturally. Nothing beats nature IMHO.