How important is a skimmer... really?

[Timfish]

For clarification for those reading this Total Organic Carbon (TOC) equals Particulate Organic Carbon (POC) + Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC). In seawater POC is ~10%, DOC is ~90%. DOC is the one I typically post about and has a huge amount of research showing it's importance to microbial processes in reef systems.

I think I pretty much covered it in my post... 80% of their marker protein was removed on average and ~30% of total organics that they measured for in an what they consider to be average reef water....

The blood serum albumen they added and is not part of "average reef water". It is one of the two metrics they showed could be used by the skimmer industry as a metric so "skimmer manufacturers finally might be able to include descriptors in their advertising such as “best”, “fastest” etc. that really mean something." They're pretty clear skimmers are only removing 20 - 30%, not 30% or better.

it is better than 10% or 5%
We can easily do the math and compare that to water changes if you want.
Do we want 100% or 80% or 50%?

Perhaps I was incorrect in believing you know skimmers only arbitrarily remove a subset of the TOC and microbiomes of the water column. As I don't see how you can compare arbitrarily removing a subset of the TOC and microbiomes with equally removing a percentage of ALL the TOC and microbiomes that a water change will remove. Depending on the types of DOC being produced by the organisms in a reef system, and how that DOC is processed by the organisms and microbiomes in a system directly effects whether a system is conducive for corals to thrive or a system is antagonistic for coral survival.

Critically, skimmers are not removing the hydrophilic components that research has shown is directly impact corals. Specifically the Dissolved Neutral Compined Sugars (DCNS) that can either inderectly cause low oxygen conditions immediately around corals or promote pathogenic shifts in their microbiome.

It would appear to me that there are decades of successful captive reefs that are supported by protein skimmers as the primary means of nutrient export. So 20%-30% must be effective enough...

Not so fast.

You haven't accounted for what sponges may be doing. Neither have you accounted for the individual coral colony's immune response. As nice color and good growth may actually be indicators of a coral with a compromised immune system it's questionable those traits can be used to demonstrate the corals in these systems are healthy. It seems to me you're relying on some of the dogma that's creeped into the hobby to justify your position and you're ignoring current research showing how critical healthy microbionmes are to long term success.

And what's an acceptable success rate? 1% @ 20 years? Sorry, not in my book. Or should it be 30% or 50%? Could it be even more? From what I've seen over the years a large percentage of the systems properly cared for could be inherited or passed on.

Lastly - If I remove literal cupfuls of thick, almost solid goo from my skimmer cup once a week, and a few quarts of nasty green smelly water... then without the skimmer, where is it going?

I've wondered how much of that smelly stuff is actually occuring in the skimmer. Moving systems I rarely see anaerobic areas larger than a few inches under some of the aquascaping. By comparison there's a good amount in the cups of the skimmers I've used. How have you determined all the microbial stuff, especially the anaerobic stuff is all from the aquarium and not microbial stuff growing in the skimmer? And how do you know there's not beneficial stuff in that?

 

[Timfish]

I'm a little confused about why one would think the overall percentage is what matters to decide benefit, as opposed to what is removed and what isn't, and the extent of any individual organic.

IMO, this is a consequence of thinking all organics should be treated as a lump sum, as opposed to a mix of beneficial, benign, slightly toxic and highly toxic compounds.

I don't understand why ARBITRARILY removing a subset of the DOC and microbiome would be considered a good thing. Especially in light of all the research shwoing how critical healthy microbiomes are to healthy ecosystems and individual organisms. Removing, or adding stuff without understanding how it's going to effect an ecosystem or organism doesn't strike me as wise.

I would certainly agree lumping all the organics into single bucket a bad idea. As you are well aware of I'm a big proponent of the research of DOC and reefs system. It clearly shows there is good stuff that's beneficial for corals and and bad stuff for corals.

 

[RibbonFish]

i do not use skimmer, sps so far grow well. I think the key is stability. Based on my previous reading , research from school shows ,all skimmers function the same. I stopped using skimmer after I saw advanced sps reefer not use. skimmer

 

[Lebowski_]

I'd run a skimmer even if it did nothing besides aerate the water.

This comment made me go out and get a skimmer lol.

 

[Spare time]

Same here -- HOB and powerhead only.
I've read that might not be sufficient oxygenation but none of my fish ever seem to be breathing heavy so??? (((That's all I have to go on right now)))

Same and I am not buying an oxygen test any time soon lol

 

[BeanAnimal]

Considering they all seemed to work the same my biggest take away is to not discount buying cheaper skimmers.

Some skimmers are just far easier to maintain and more stable than others.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I don't understand why ARBITRARILY removing a subset of the DOC and microbiome would be considered a good thing. Especially in light of all the research shwoing how critical healthy microbiomes are to healthy ecosystems and individual organisms. Removing, or adding stuff without understanding how it's going to effect an ecosystem or organism doesn't strike me as wise.

I would certainly agree lumping all the organics into single bucket a bad idea. As you are well aware of I'm a big proponent of the research of DOC and reefs system. It clearly shows there is good stuff that's beneficial for corals and and bad stuff for corals.

That’s all fine an dandy, but until somebody comes up with selective export mechanism that only targets the “bad’ stuff…

We are splitting a lot of hairs here. You commented on water charges vs skimmers and the set vs subset being removed…. So the water change removes good and bad too, The same with carbon, or other means of export.

Not a rabbit hole that I have any interest in debating; I have run skimmerless with no water changes for half a decade. I now run a skimmer and do not do water changes. I am happy.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Hear me out. I've had my aquarium going for about a year. It's a 100 gallon system with a moderate number of fish, snails, crabs, and coral. I bought the red sea skimmer, and have been using it during that time. In the course of a year, I've NEVER felt like the skimmer was "dialed in". Despite numerous attempts to reign it in, it would invariably skim way too much (fill the container in an hour or less) or skim way too little (fill the container never). I can't get it do anything in between.

Do I really need to use this thing? It doesn't seem to ever do anything helpful.

No, one does not need a protein skimmer.
Why,? To aerate the water? Or used as a surface skimmer?

What proteins a skimmer does remove? Proteins are the carrier of nitrogen and part of the food source. Only if it removes part of the food source or and life organisms living on skimmable organic waste;

If a skimmer is doing what they tell us it is supposed to do, removing DOC and other organic compounds, a lot of those organic compounds do not contain or very little nitrogen and are not proteins containing nitrogen. Most nitrogen ( +80%) is removed from the feed by primary users and released as ammonia. To remove this ammonia, growth is needed. To have enough growth all building materials are needed, including those compounds part of organic waste and DOC.( organic compounds are not waste for those who need it, able to restore the balance) . Bacteria braking down organics need DOC and consume ammonia. If organics are skimmed ammonia left over is transformed into usable and less toxic nitrate. If most organic carbon is removed by a very effective skimmer inorganic nitrogen will build up and only can be removed by photo-autotropic growth. But to have enough growth able to remove all produced nitrogen enough building materials are needed including those removed by a skimmer.
Denitrification also needs bacterial growth and DOC, DOC removed by a skimmer.

Basically it is all about what is going in and what can be harvested to be removed or to be reused. A skimmer does this very selective leaving all not skimmables behind. How these left overs can be removed?
Nitrogen management starts with what is going in. If high protein food is added from the start, even without a skimmer, in an aquarium normal growth will not be able to restore the balance Nature does this by growing algae and plants able to store a very high amount of carbon which may become part of the food chain, this way trying to close the nitrogen and carbon cycle.

If your nitrates do not build build up, your skimmer is working fine as it is, not removing too much DOC.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Hear me out. I've had my aquarium going for about a year. It's a 100 gallon system with a moderate number of fish, snails, crabs, and coral. I bought the red sea skimmer, and have been using it during that time. In the course of a year, I've NEVER felt like the skimmer was "dialed in". Despite numerous attempts to reign it in, it would invariably skim way too much (fill the container in an hour or less) or skim way too little (fill the container never). I can't get it do anything in between.

Do I really need to use this thing? It doesn't seem to ever do anything helpful.

No, one does not need a skimmer.

If one has a skimmer which is doing what it is supposed to do, removing DOC and other organic compounds, a lot of those organic compounds do not contain or very little nitrogen. Most nitrogen ( +80%) is removed from the feed by primary users and released as ammonia. To remove this ammonia, growth is needed. To have enough growth all building materials are needed, including those compounds part of organic waste and DOC.( organic compounds are not waste for those who need it to restore the balance) . Bacteria braking down organics need DOC and consume ammonia. If organics are skimmed ammonia left over is transformed into usable and less toxic nitrate. If most organic carbon is removed by a very effective skimmer inorganic nitrogen will build up and only can be removed by photo-autotropic growth. But to have enough growth able to remove all produced nitrogen enough building materials are needed including those removed by a skimmer.
Denitrification also needs bacterial growth and DOC, DOC removed by a skimmer.

Basically it is all about what is going in and what can be harvested to be removed or to be reused. A skimmer does this very selective leaving all not skimmables behind. How these left overs can be removed?
Nitrogen management starts with what is going in. If high protein food is added from the start, even without a skimmer, in an aquarium normal growth will not be able to restore the balance Nature does this by growing algae and plants able to store a very high amount of carbon which may become part of the food chain, this way trying to close the nitrogen and carbon cycle.

If your nitrates do not build build up, your skimmer is working fine as it is, not removing too much DOC.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't understand why ARBITRARILY removing a subset of the DOC and microbiome would be considered a good thing. Especially in light of all the research shwoing how critical healthy microbiomes are to healthy ecosystems and individual organisms. Removing, or adding stuff without understanding how it's going to effect an ecosystem or organism doesn't strike me as wise.

I would certainly agree lumping all the organics into single bucket a bad idea. As you are well aware of I'm a big proponent of the research of DOC and reefs system. It clearly shows there is good stuff that's beneficial for corals and and bad stuff for corals.

Since you are of the opinion that removing organics is desirable, then removing a large fraction of some organics seems to be desirable, no?

To claim it is unknown to be desirable or not because you do not know every compound removed and to what extent implies that you might have that same info for any other addition (say, foods or organism secretions) or export methods (say, GAC or purigen).

Of course, no one has such info for any additions or exports we use, except perhaps pure organic carbon dosing solutions.

 

[BeanAnimal]

No, one does not need a protein skimmer.
Why,? To aerate the water? Or used as a surface skimmer?

What proteins a skimmer does remove? Proteins are the carrier of nitrogen and part of the food source. Only if it removes part of the food source or and life organisms living on skimmable organic waste;

If a skimmer is doing what they tell us it is supposed to do, removing DOC and other organic compounds, a lot of those organic compounds do not contain or very little nitrogen and are not proteins containing nitrogen. Most nitrogen ( +80%) is removed from the feed by primary users and released as ammonia. To remove this ammonia, growth is needed. To have enough growth all building materials are needed, including those compounds part of organic waste and DOC.( organic compounds are not waste for those who need it, able to restore the balance) . Bacteria braking down organics need DOC and consume ammonia. If organics are skimmed ammonia left over is transformed into usable and less toxic nitrate. If most organic carbon is removed by a very effective skimmer inorganic nitrogen will build up and only can be removed by photo-autotropic growth. But to have enough growth able to remove all produced nitrogen enough building materials are needed including those removed by a skimmer.
Denitrification also needs bacterial growth and DOC, DOC removed by a skimmer.

Basically it is all about what is going in and what can be harvested to be removed or to be reused. A skimmer does this very selective leaving all not skimmables behind. How these left overs can be removed?
Nitrogen management starts with what is going in. If high protein food is added from the start, even without a skimmer, in an aquarium normal growth will not be able to restore the balance Nature does this by growing algae and plants able to store a very high amount of carbon which may become part of the food chain, this way trying to close the nitrogen and carbon cycle.

If your nitrates do not build build up, your skimmer is working fine as it is, not removing too much DOC.

So many of you insist in splitting hairs about what exactly it does or does not remove are missing most of the point, a skimmer removes stuff. It is a means of export, like water changes, absorption, adsorption, algae harvesting, precipitation or chemical binding….

We know we need to remove or sequester stuff or the aquarium turns into a cess pool. Pick your method and deal with the pros and cons and time tested means. Or, wring your hands anmd worry about exactly what specific compounds may or may not be removed. Up to you!

 

[ReefGeezer]

I run a skimmer and adjust it as needed to maintain acceptable DOC levels. I do agree 30% of dissolved organic carbon is a substantial quantity and justifies the use of a skimmer.

While we focus on the 30% number, isn't it also true that a skimmer removes 100% of the organics that are susceptible to its function. As per the study, could the removal of 100% of proteins similar to BSA as a large part of those removed DOCs be a negative factor?

I'm gonna bump my own question so that I might be more precise...

First let me say that I can't imagine managing an immature system without a skimmer. But, after a little reading, a questions occurs to me... How do we decide when our tanks need the proteins and other organic carbon compounds, and etc. that are removed by the skimmer? Are there clues/symptoms to look for and use to figure out a balance?

 

[BeanAnimal]

I'm gonna bump my own question so that I might be more precise...

First let me say that I can't imagine managing an immature system without a skimmer. But, after a little reading, a questions occurs to me... How do we decide when our tanks need the proteins and other organic carbon compounds, and etc. that are removed by the skimmer? Are there clues/symptoms to look for and use to figure out a balance?

IMHO I don’t think that you can overskim within reason. does the system look healthy and support life? Are all measurable parameters in balance? If yes and you still kill coral, then you may want to start looking at your methodology. If not, the fix the time tested parameters before worrying about what specific molecule that a skimmer may or may not remove.