How long should I expect my Radion to last before I need to replace it?
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outhouse
Valuable Member
Well my lights at 70% were way to intense for my 210, and if you are not running at 100% intensity which most of us are not, you will get much longer then 5 years. Im over 5 years on mine, and have no major loss of light. Matter of fact I had to turn them way down as I was running to much intensity for this whole time. Im sure they degrade as described above, but that would really only matter if your tank required 100%
Dana Riddle
2500 Club Member
To answer a question above - A PAR meter will report loss of intensity which will be due to loss of some part of the spectrum (which part is the unknown unless you have an instrument to measure spectral quality.)
If you're driving a LED with less current, you can expect a longer life (if other factors such as heat and humidity are controlled.)
As for PAR meters, Apogee Instruments offers quality at a reasonable price (as compared to the Li-Cor devices.) Another quality option is the PMK (PAR monitoring kit) if you have a Neptune Systems Apex. I compared measurements from the PMK to those reported by an Apogee MQ-510 and they were spot on. The PMK is a (and of) value.
Apogee recently introduced a PAR meter (PQ-510) that reports PAR (or correctly, PPFD) via BlueTooth to your phone or tablet. DLI is also calculated. I'm way behind on updating here about PAR meter options, just when Apogee is introducing a new sensor - ePAR - that measures PPFD into the UV-A and far red portions of the spectrum.
If you're driving a LED with less current, you can expect a longer life (if other factors such as heat and humidity are controlled.)
As for PAR meters, Apogee Instruments offers quality at a reasonable price (as compared to the Li-Cor devices.) Another quality option is the PMK (PAR monitoring kit) if you have a Neptune Systems Apex. I compared measurements from the PMK to those reported by an Apogee MQ-510 and they were spot on. The PMK is a (and of) value.
Apogee recently introduced a PAR meter (PQ-510) that reports PAR (or correctly, PPFD) via BlueTooth to your phone or tablet. DLI is also calculated. I'm way behind on updating here about PAR meter options, just when Apogee is introducing a new sensor - ePAR - that measures PPFD into the UV-A and far red portions of the spectrum.
BostonReefer300
Valuable Member
I was typing my reply, but Dana beat me to the punch
Dana Riddle
2500 Club Member
Great minds think alike.I was typing my reply, but Dana beat me to the punch
I don't know about others, but Radion G5s are actively cooled and will automatically dim the LEDs if the fans cannot keep the temperatures in the acceptable range.
I would think therefore that the percentage they're run at would make little difference to lifespan. It would be good to have this confirmed with actual data.
rtparty
2500 Club Member
Depends on who you talk to. I don't think enough people stay in the hobby or keep lights long enough to really know. I've heard multiple industry people say LEDs start degrading around 4 years. I'd expect 5-7 years and anything longer is a complete bonus.
outhouse
Valuable Member
Correct.
I am not arguing against Dana, that data is all correct. If you take Viparspectra and they rate 100,000 hours. That is more than 30 years at 8 hours a day, but one would also expect Danas figures to apply as far as degradation, so if you required 100% you would need to replace the light boards long before that.
Ocean revive claims a more realistic 50,000 hours, probably the same exact 3W leds, which is still 15 years, I am a 1/3 the way through and have not had a single led fail or even look diminished after running 70% for over 5 years, at 10 hours a day, and I have had to turn them way down as my LPS was getting bleached in a 210, even on the bottom. Now 8 hours max on B and 6 on W
If one analyzes cost and lifespan, this thread makes a great case for black boxs. Im sure I will get to a decade with these, at a cost $540 Lucky enough when your leds fail in the timers and they cannot be read, they can be replaced for 10 bucks each. Viparspectra has been a great company to work with where ocean revive shut its doors and you will get no support at all.
Even if I lost 50% after 5 years, I still had to turn mine way way down as the 3W leds are more powerful then you think they are.
Support also great for the guys at Ecotech. and if I go Radions id run them a decade minimum
Expected LED lifetime
LED light reduces over time. This form of LED lifespan or LED lifetime is particularly important for applications such as lighting where it is important that the light is maintained above a certain level.A term called lumen deprecation is used to describe this aspect of the LED performance.
The LED lifetime or LED lifespan is the time to when the light output falls to a given level. The LED life expectancy may be quoted in the format L70 or L50, for the life to when the light output falls to 70% or 50% of the original value respectively.
The LED lifetime, i.e. the LED operational life is generally defined in the following terms:
L70% = Time to 70% of illumination (lumen maintenance)
L50% = Time to 50% of illumination (lumen maintenance)
The L70 value was chosen because a power LED industry group called the Alliance for Solid-State Illumination Systems and Technologies, ASSIST, undertook tests which demonstrated people generally did not notice a gradually diminishing LED light output until it had dropped by 30% of its original brightness, i.e. to 70% of initial light output. This then gave rise to the L70 figure. However for non-critical areas the L50 figure may also be used.
As a rough guide, most LEDs intended for lighting applications offer L70 values of 50,000 to 60,000 hours, although with improved manufacture of the high brightness LEDs used for lighting, some manufacturers are now quoting figures of 100 000 hours.https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/electronic_components/diode/light-emitting-diode-led-lifetime-lifespan-expectancy-mtbf.php
tehmadreefer
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50,000 hours of actual use.I know. I'm one of the weirdos who hasn't upgraded his LEDs to the newest ones out... I've got a Radion Gen1 that I upgraded to the Gen3 pucks a few years ago, and I'm wondering how long I should expect it to last before I need to be thinking about replacements? Also, should I expect gradual PAR decrease, or would the diodes just burn out when they're done?
Btw, I do still love my radions. I just am wondering at what point I need to expect to retire them and how I'll know what that looks like.
@Dana Riddle @Tim at EcoTech #lightinggurus
outhouse
Valuable Member
As Dana said the cooler you run a diode, the longer they will last, and running them at low output still reduces overall temps. Which is key to getting maximum lifespan. a diode a 100% will run much hotter even with a fan and good heatsink then one running 15 0r 30%.
but you said it best, the actual data showing the possible differences would be key.
captainsmitty
Active Member
I purchased the gen 1 Radions when thyey came out and spent the next 4 years purchasing equipmwent and then the final build about 20 months ago. I did not upgrade them to the gen 3. I also rin T5's for part of the day with the gen 1. Im hoping that they will give me a good life as the intensity is reduced 30-40%.
That's what I'm saying though, on a thermostatically controlled system that's not necessarily the case.
Like for example a car engine - it's working harder and making a lot more heat at 70mph than at 30mph, but the temperature is staying between 90 and 95c regardless because the cooling system is thermostatically controlled.
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outhouse
Valuable Member
Difference in a car engine is they run a steady temperature and water cooled with a thermostat regulating cooling. But temps still rise dramatically in all performance applications. 100F day I can hold 195F on a LS7, but on a track 230 240 is common. As far as our lights are concerned, they are simply air cooled, and by that I mean the heatsink is cooled down. The diode temps vary greatly depending on intensity, no matter how well they are thermostatically controlled. Our fans simply remove excess heat from the heatsink, as needed. They in no way regulate diode temps accurately, they just removes peak heat conditions. My fans dont even come on as low as run my current set up. Fact is with air cooled electronics less wattage equals less heat. Even if we water cooled the heatsink, the actual diode itself will run much hotter at full throttle then less. This is also seen directly by looking at CPU temps in water cooled graphic cards and CPUs. Which have 20 X better interface with much better thermal compounds these diodes do not have. We actually hand lap the CPU cores to #3000 grit then polish before applying thermal compound. So dont take this as arguing against you, you are semi correct, im just pointing out small details that matter. The heat transfer is not instant from diode to heatsink, and the thermostat may not even be in play at lower temps. All I posit is not running a led at full intensity will naturally run cooler and will increase its lifespan.
I don't think the exact mechanism of the cooling system matters. Besides, those examples are all eventually cooled by air aren't they?
If there is enough cooling capacity and there is some kind of thermostatic control system then I don't think you can assume that the temperature will continue to increase as the workload increases.
For example, assuming the system does have enough cooling capacity (and i don't know for sure, which is why i want to see the data), it could be that the system is configured to maintain a temp at or under 60c:
- At 15%, the temperature is 40c and the fans do not run
- At 30% the temperature is 55c and the fans do not run
- At 50% the temperature is 60c and the fans run at low RPM
- At 70% the temp is 60c and the fans run at medium RPM
- At 100% the temp is 60c and the fans run at very high RPM
If your car engine is increasing above its recommended working range when on track then what you are saying is that it does not have enough cooling capacity for that workload and it needs e.g. a larger radiator.
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outhouse
Valuable Member
My 628HP NA lS7 which I hand built myself, based on the data I provided you with, is actually running in its working temperature range, its just a known fact when you run harder, you run hotter. And I already run the largest radiator made for that specific application.
Trying not to argue with you but thermal management has been a hobby as much as my 26 years of reef aquariums.
And I do know, Here is one example found for you "" Between the LED's thermal impedance and the MCPB, I would guess you will probably be in the 5 C/W range from past experience. ""
What you will find is heat in diode is directly tied to wattage going in regardless of thermal management. Due to the factual thermal impedance
None of this is worth arguing, and these details not furthering the topic. Fact is if you run a led at 100% it wont last as long as running one at 50% it is also why manufacturers are claiming 50 to 100,000 hour longevity .
Dont trust me trust Dana
Far as I'm concerned we're discussing, not arguing?
Appreciate tone is often lost on forums, but it's not my intention to argue with you or anyone.I'm not saying that you are wrong in general, what I am saying is that I would like it to be confirmed with data for these specific lights, because if the cooling is sufficient to keep the temperature constant, I don't see why there would be more degradation between a light at 50% and a light at 100%.
I'm not sure Dana's message you quoted is relevant to the specific point we are discussing, because AFAIK Radion LEDs are dimmed using constant current & PWM. That would however be relevant to comparing two different models of light which drive the emitters as different currents.
Dana Riddle
2500 Club Member
I'm tagging along here. I have a paper by the Next Generation Lighting Industry Alliance (Cree, Philips, GE, etc.) that has pertinent data but as @outhouse has said, we're beating a dead horse.
Well please post it then, so we can all learn from it.
FWIW I've spoken to Ecotech today and they have confirmed that they expect no more degradation or shortening of LED lifespan at any intensity setting.
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