How safe are coral dips and can they cause cancer?

[Dkeller_nc]

"Actually, the plaintiff in this case was quite compelling in proving the carcinogenic effect not based on epidemiological inevitability."

No, actually not. What the plaintiff, or in this case the plaintiff's lawyers, did, was convince a jury of lay people that correlation = causation.

But on your direct question, understand that carcinogenicity of any chemical is a combination of the concentration of the chemical, the exposure potential and route of the chemical, its innate carcinogenicity, and the duration and frequency of exposure. In the case of the chemical(s) that you're concerned about, beta cyflurin and imidacloprid (Bayer insecticide), the innate carcinogenicity is low (very low), the exposure potential is also very low (neither will readily absorb through skin, neither is appreciably volatile, and presumably you're not a complete dumb monkey and aren't going to drink it), and probably most importantly, the exposure duration and frequency is vanishingly low.

Keep in mind that when you eat preserved meat - any preserved meat, such as bacon, salami, sausage, pepperoni, beef jerky, etc... you're ingesting a known carcinogen. This known carcinogen is used to preserve meat products and prevent a far, far, far more serious danger, and that's that such products that don't contain sodium nitrite are a really serious risk of supporting clostridium botulinum. That's an organism that causes botulism poisoning, and ingested in sufficient quantity, is uniformly fatal.

 

[fish farmer]

I know a guy who took a shot of formalin (a known carcinogen)....and survived. Messed up his stomach, but is still alive some 25 years later.

 

[WVfishguy]

Everything causes cancer in California.

 

[Hermie]

It's totally easy to take safety precautions when dealing with potential carcinogens.

1. wear gloves when using chemicals (insecticides, coral dips, etc) You can get a giant box for 5 bucks at Home Depot.
2. wear eye protector (I always at least wear my glasses) You can get cheap eye protectors on Amazon (10 bucks)
3. use disposable containers (recycle your 2 litre of soda or gal of milk containers)
4. optionally, turn on a directional fan and open windows

These are super easy to do, and even if you think you have already been exposed to enough carcinogens in your life that starting safety measures now won't help you, that's a poor excuse. Just do it and you will be in the habit and have the peace of mind.

 

[Frogger]

You need to put things in perspective. Whether Bayers is carcinogenic is really not important, just assume everything that we use to kill anything is; Bayer, Coral RX, Revive etc is not good for you, take proper precautions and try not to drink it.

It also has everything to do with exposure. If you are using it ever day all day long your exposure is much more than using it a couple times a month to dip new corals.

I have always used the analogy of pesticides to second hand smoke. It has clearly been proven that second hand smoke is carcinogenic. If you work at a bar where people smoke every day for 8 hours a day your exposure would be very high and would be at risk. If you walk by someone smoking in a building or outside your exposure is very low and you are at no risk. I have never met anyone truly concerned about walking by someone smoking.

As mentioned many times above follow smart safety precautions and your exposure will be extremely low.

 

[saltyhog]

"Actually, the plaintiff in this case was quite compelling in proving the carcinogenic effect not based on epidemiological inevitability."

No, actually not. What the plaintiff, or in this case the plaintiff's lawyers, did, was convince a jury of lay people that correlation = causation.
.

Well said...I fight this fight every day. Just because B follows A doesn't mean A causes B!

 

[Lousybreed]

Wear proper PPE (latex gloves and safety glasses) and you have reduced your risk to almost zero. Don’t drink any when you dump it down the drain either. In all seriousness wearing PPE and properly disposing of it afterwards leaves you with zero risk.

 

[Zeal]

I use seachem Iodine dip. Pretty that’s not not toxic one bit

 

[sfin52]

I get that, and I don’t pretend to know the answers. Just raising the question and concerned about long term safety of the use of these toxins for coral dipping to the hobbiest or even to those folks that sell coral for a living. How much is too much use over the long term and can the effective be cumulative in humans? And do the manufacturers of coral dips test for these long term safety studies in humans? Just curious- and are there non- toxic alternatives to dip with other than Lugol type Solutions?

 

[Hitch08]

"Actually, the plaintiff in this case was quite compelling in proving the carcinogenic effect not based on epidemiological inevitability."

“No, actually not. What the plaintiff, or in this case the plaintiff's lawyers, did, was convince a jury of lay people that correlation = causation.”

A response that caused me to....say “Hmmmm?”

I read the article a bit differently. A jury of lay people concluded, after hearing expert testimony presented not only by the plaintiff, but Bayer, that Glyphosate is carcinogenic.

The Wall Street Journal (which clearly doesn’t have a pro-plaintiff bias) article then links to its previous article noting that the International Agency for Research on Cancer, an agency of the World Health Organization, classified Glyphosate as a probably carcinogenic. The article states that “the international research agency cited studies of occupational exposure to glyphosate in the U.S., Canada and Sweden, which they wrote showed ‘increased risks for non-Hodgkin lymphoma’.” Same cancer that the plaintiff has.

In other words, the jury reached a very similar conclusion.

 

[sfin52]

also remember some if the applicators are dealing with 100% undiluted product repeatedly day in day out .

 

[Sod Buster]

dump it down the drain

Please do not just "dump it down the drain". Landfills are lined with clay soil so all the garbage can't leech out. Dilute your off label coral dip with lots of water and pour it in your driveway. Sunshine volotizes the agent and makes it almost safe. Pour it down the drain, your kids drink it in a month. Common sense people please.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I only use safe and tested dips such as seachem DIP or CoralRX

 

[KrisReef]

Please look at the third bullet. I think that the courts are not a good place to settle medical and scientific debates.

Data on the Round-up-cancer from the
University of Texas's website found here:
https://www.mdanderson.org/cancer-types/non-hodgkins-lymphoma.html

Non-Hodgkin’s Lymphoma Risk Factors
Anything that increases your chance of getting non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma is a risk factor. Although scientists don’t know yet what causes non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma, some factors seem to make you more likely to develop non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. These include:

• Gender: Non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma is slightly more common in men
• Race: Non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma is slightly more common in Caucasians
• Living in a farming community. Some studies suggest that certain herbicides and pesticides may play a part in lymphoma, but this has not been proven
• Bacteria or viruses, including human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), Epstein-Barr virus (EBV), human T-lymphotropic virus (HTLV) and the bacterium Helicobacter pylori
• Inherited syndromes

Not everyone with risk factors gets non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. However, if you have risk factors, you should discuss them with your doctor.

In rare cases, non-Hodgkin's lymphoma can be passed down from one generation to the next. Genetic counseling may be right for you. Visit our genetic testing page to learn more.

End of pasted text
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[Sod Buster]

So you all know, glyphosate was formulated to be a cleaner for farmers sprayer tanks when we used chemicals that would stain your skin for 3 months if you got it on you. It is a salt, yes a chemically formed salt, like the buckets you mix rodi water with to enjoy this hobby as I do. This salt requires new plant growth "fresh chlorophyll" to trans locate to the plants to the root to kill it. Do not turn this thread into a glyphosate discussion if said by two doctors it may cause non hosgikns lymphoma. I get a concentration on me you'd never phathom. I'm going to die from something sometime. The dip you all use is a nervous system inhabilitator, made safe for central nervous systems that don't take a concentration to the dome. Simple organisms don't have a defense to this, scientists and chemists have proven. Humans, our dogs/cats need to drink and sleep in the insecticide to be affected. Thankful I have oily repellent skin like you do. End of my rant. Again, homeowners, stop using roundup wrong when the plant is larger than 4 inches high and shows no growth point, you are making resistant weeds that us farmers can't control in our fields. Thankfully I won't get into the options not available to someone who doesn't have a license to purchase them.

In the 1930's my gpa sprinkled arsenate of lead on growing cabbage heads. Most of the population is many generations removed from a farm. Thankfully the chemists are trying to stay ahead of nature. That keeps the world fed.

 

[EMeyer]

It is a sad day for the American public when the media can make a ridiculous statement like "Jury proves roundup causes cancer" and the general public accepts this as a sensible statement, or even "news".

Whats next? "Jury proves E is not equal to m*c^2"... "Jury proves early humans rode dinosaurs" ... "Jury proves time travel is possible despite objections of physicists"

Potential jurors are very carefully screened, and people with advanced degrees are almost never selected. The jury had no experience, no training, no education to prepare them to evaluate medical statistics.

Ridiculous that this headline wasnt mocked off the front page of every news site immediately.

 

[KrisReef]

It is a sad day for the American public when the media can make a ridiculous statement like "Jury proves roundup causes cancer" and the general public accepts this as a sensible statement, or even "news".

Whats next? "Jury proves E is not equal to m*c^2"... "Jury proves early humans rode dinosaurs" ... "Jury proves time travel is possible despite objections of physicists"

Potential jurors are very carefully screened, and people with advanced degrees are almost never selected. The jury had no experience, no training, no education to prepare them to evaluate medical statistics.

Ridiculous that this headline wasnt mocked off the front page of every news site immediately.

I don't blame the jury so much as I blame the courts and the presiding judges who allow attorneys to behave and present their cases in our court as if the cases being presented were not a fact finding exercise but rather a"Time-share Vacation's" sales pitch to the jurors. Anybody else on here ever been to jury duty and heard something like this:?

"You esteemed members of the jury must know that none of the people who have died from the 7th most common type of cancer in America were told that they would get cancer and die before they did. None of them, not one single individual soul among these now-dead Americans had the chance we have today to purchase their survivors a Lifetime Time-share vacation that will compensate them for the wrong imposed upon them by the treacherous Monsanto Company. YOU must return a finding that Monsanto secretly conspired by withholding what scientists have not yet proven, but what I have repeatedly alleged, and my paid-for experts have testified to, that there are more cancer cases among farming people than in city people, and that can only be because Monsanto makes weedkiller that is poisoning the planet, it kills weeds so what else could it do to people? It CAUSES cancer, and MoonsantTOE knew it all along!
It is time we held these mega corporations liable for the products they sell that are poisoning the environment and destroying the planet while killing weeds too! Don't let their clever defense team trick you into thinking that science has not yet proven that Round Up causes cancer. The farm community has used 500 billion gallons of stuff and look at all the people who have died in farming communities! We have shown that 95% of people who live in farming communities have all died before they reach the age of 75! Monsanto admits they knew this and they did nothing to stop it? Look again at these poor farmers trying to scratch out a living fromt he earth: 100% are dead before they reach 115! What else could have possibly caused these fine people to die like this if it wasn't the evil poison from the Monsanto weedkiller? 500 BILLION gallons is a lot of poison. They are drowning in this stuff!

After this jury does what is right and finds in favor for these survivors, and affirms that Monsanto is guilty of making round up, which obviously causes cancer, then I will ask you to find for my clients a huge sum of penalty money so that they can move off the farm and into a nice Timeshare property where they can live out their days."

The plea to the court ended there, but the esquire quietly whispered to his partner:
"I hope to join them there for a week of vacation myself. It's a nice place except for the weeds growing out front by the roadway. I've asked the grounds keeper to treat those weeds with a weedkiller. While I am on vacation I hope to recruit that gardener for my next tort client against this Big Toxic Deep Pocket Chemical Company."

 

[TheHarold]

It only causes cancer if you are in California. Otherwise, no worries!

 

[Hitch08]

Several of you appear to be old enough to remember when the executives of the top seven tobacco companies testified before Congress. All seven testified that cigarettes are not addictive. They acknowledged that they could manipulate the levels of nicotine in their products, but that they only did it to enhance flavor - not to addict. Because, well, the product is not addictive. They also testified that cigarettes may cause health problems, but that the evidence was "not conclusive."

That was in 1994.

Not long after, they started to defend lawsuits by arguing that everyone knew the product is dangerous and that the plaintiff decided to smoke anyway.

 

[KrisReef]

Yup, that was 1994. Companies do lie, but this time the lawyers were making unscientific claims.

I've been watching the other side of the story unfold for awhile and the courts won for their profession on this one.

Part of the build up:
https://www.organicconsumers.org/news/monsantos-roundup-get-cancer-label#close

Show me the hidden scientific data that positively links glyphosate to cancer. (It may indeed be bad for ones health, but the data isn't there.)

The producers and sellers of glyphosate never recommend that people drink it or smoke round up, or added chemicals to make it addictive or claimed that it wasn't addictive when it is. The claim that they prevented studies may have merit, but that still isn't a cancer link.

And then there is the on-going search for a whistle blower:

https://www.mahanyertl.com/2018/monsanto-whistleblower-roundup-cancer-lawsuits/

Lots of money to be made in all of this, but that doesn't make a carcinogenic.

Be safe, use protection, wear seat belts, get new partners tested, and yes, don't Bayer false witness against your neighbor.