How to do a blackout for Dinoflagellates

[Boss]

To address my dinoflagellate issue in my SPS/LPS dominated mixed reef I'm going to try a blackout for 3-4 days per everyone's advice. However, I can't seem to find answers to the following questions regarding "how to do a blackout" in case anyone can help:

1. Do I need to blackout my refugium/sump and keep those lights off also?
2. Do I still feed the fish and/or corals during the blackout?
3. Anything else I should change during the blackout (e.g. skimmer, UV, reactors, etc..)?
4. Can I just turn the lights on after the blackout or should I ramp them up slowly? If so, how slowly?
5. Is it bad to throw a blanket over the entire tank or will that negatively impact gas exchange (note: I can remote the airline for the skimmer)? If it will hurt, how do I black it out without covering up the top opening?
6. Is there anything I should check on throughout the blackout period (e.g. could corals get hurt), or should I not peek?

Thanks for any help in answering any of these questions!
Mark

 

[SkinnyMcGinny]

Hi,

Here's my two cents: YES, I would black out the refugium. NO, I don't think you need to feed fish or corals, likely they will go into a sleep-like state and metabolic rates will drop, they should be ok for 3-4 days with no food (I blacked out with anthiases for 5 days and they did fine). YES, leave skimmer, UV running. If you have a dosing pump, you might want to turn it off or way down, as your uptake will drop in dark, watch dKH. IDK about the blanket, I have a canopy with doors on the top of my tank so I didn't worry about that.

I do have one piece of bad news -- I fought an EPIC dyno-battle, the worst thing I've been through in the hobby, and tried 3-4 black-outs that never really worked. As soon as the lights came back on, the dynos came back. But blackouts are relatively easy, and maybe worth a try?

What worked for me, btw, was just getting my nutrients up, until the dynos all converted into some kind of green algae. Then half a dozen Turbo snails cleaned it up in a few days. Good luck.

 

[Boss]

Thanks! Especially the part about dialing back my dosing pumps. I didn't think about that.

Do you remember if you just cut the lights back on after the blackout or did you slowly ramp it up over a couple of days? I read one article that recommended ramping, but haven't heard anyone else mention it.

Thanks again.

 

[Mikedawg]

Thanks! Especially the part about dialing back my dosing pumps. I didn't think about that.

Do you remember if you just cut the lights back on after the blackout or did you slowly ramp it up over a couple of days? I read one article that recommended ramping, but haven't heard anyone else mention it.

Thanks again.

I would ramp lights back up over at least a week's time to avoid additional stress. I finally beat my case of ovata by increasing biodiversity and running uv. Good luck; can be a real challenge.

I think some reefers here have had success using Dr. Tim's dino formula and you might want to consider it.

 

[bevo5]

Slowly ramp for sure.

try and limit any ambient light. I did a blackout in my basement and blocked out the windows with thick black trash bags. You want as much blacked out as humanly possible. Any light will compromise the effort.

I will say - when lights came back on the tank was near spotless and the water was crystal clear. I actually think blackouts are good every so often regardless. But my Dino’s came back about a month later.

 

[jsvand5]

Do you have a UV on the system?

 

[Boss]

I would ramp lights back up over at least a week's time to avoid additional stress. I finally beat my case of ovata by increasing biodiversity and running uv. Good luck; can be a real challenge.

I think some reefers here have had success using Dr. Tim's dino formula and you might want to consider it.

@Mikedawg Thanks. I'm going to try Dr. Tim's Dinoflagellate Treatment bundle. BRS has what looks to be a good write up on this product page for how to use this in conjunction with doing a blackout. Fingers crossed.

Ironically, I always battled high nitrates and occasional cyano outbreaks until I recently upgraded my fuge light to a Kessil H380, which was great as cheato grows very fast now, reducing nitrates to zero and eliminating cyano (note: phosphates still at 0.125 though). BUT now that nitrates are at zero, I now appear to have a dino outbreak. So after doing some research I'm first going to try dosing Neonitrate to get my nitrates up, then move on to Dr. Tims and the Blackout. I hope this works.

Do you have a UV on the system?

@jsvand5 I have an Aqua Ultraviolet UV light that I leave on all the time, with about 400 GPH (my system is about 135 gallons total). I recently just cleaned the glass sleeve in it and replaced the bulb hoping it would help. Not sure if I have the right flow though.

 

[BuddyBonButt]

I would ramp lights back up over at least a week's time to avoid additional stress. I finally beat my case of ovata by increasing biodiversity and running uv. Good luck; can be a real challenge.

I think some reefers here have had success using Dr. Tim's dino formula and you might want to consider it.

Hey Mike, sorry to bother you but I'm also having a dino outbreak. You said you increased biodiversity, what exactly did you add to the tank? I have a 90 gallon tank with one neon goby, one urchin, two conch, four cleaner shrimp, and a few snails. I did add some copepods but I have yet to see them actually appear in the tank. What else do you recommend I add? I also have no Coral but I do plan to add Coral

 

[Mikedawg]

I threw in everything I could find that I didn't think would cause a problem longer term. So added zooplankton (pods basically), live phytoplanton, borrowed some more live rock, got some sand from a friend's tank, added in bristle worms, and other inverts like fighting conchs, etc. Figured this would increase the chances of introducing some organisms that would compete with dinos and I felt I needed to do something constructive. In the end, I suspect adding a UV light is what really worked, and my tank also benefited from adding more biodiversity.

Assume your nitrate and phosphate levels are appropriate, etc. Lot of advice for managing them (dinos cannot be totally eliminated) on R2R and a quick search will keep you reading for awhile.

Also, if you make a new post, you'll get a lot more reefer friends.

Dinos are a PITA as I'm sure you know so good luck!

 

[BuddyBonButt]

I threw in everything I could find that I didn't think would cause a problem longer term. So added zooplankton (pods basically), live phytoplanton, borrowed some more live rock, got some sand from a friend's tank, added in bristle worms, and other inverts like fighting conchs, etc. Figured this would increase the chances of introducing some organisms that would compete with dinos and I felt I needed to do something constructive. In the end, I suspect adding a UV light is what really worked, and my tank also benefited from adding more biodiversity.

Assume your nitrate and phosphate levels are appropriate, etc. Lot of advice for managing them (dinos cannot be totally eliminated) on R2R and a quick search will keep you reading for awhile.

Also, if you make a new post, you'll get a lot more reefer friends.

Dinos are a PITA as I'm sure you know so good luck!

Yeah it's been tough. I can't find a uv I can afford so I can't use one. But I'm trying literally everything else I can think of.

 

[alexanderthefishlover]

So do I toss a blanket over it? Anyone know? Worried about gas exchange??

Does this work long term cause my nitrates are 3 ppm phos .05 and still have Dino and they actually are worse with more nitrate fulling them. Feels like the nitrate phos myth is just a load of smelly crap.

I just ordered Dino x because no one’s advice on this forum has worked at all long term.

I have 2 uv filters on a 25 gallon, again nitrates 3 phos 0.05 ppm. Raised temp, added bacteria, added more pods, added h2o2, siphoned, does neo nitro to maintain levels, turned skimmers off didn’t change filter socks and it made it all worse. So no one has actually helped my issue at all.

Dino x I hope you work. If not I’m out of reef hobby and only in freshwater. Not worth the hassle not the costs to keep it at this point feels like a waste of my time and efforts.

 

[saltyhog]

To address my dinoflagellate issue in my SPS/LPS dominated mixed reef I'm going to try a blackout for 3-4 days per everyone's advice. However, I can't seem to find answers to the following questions regarding "how to do a blackout" in case anyone can help:

1. Do I need to blackout my refugium/sump and keep those lights off also?
2. Do I still feed the fish and/or corals during the blackout?
3. Anything else I should change during the blackout (e.g. skimmer, UV, reactors, etc..)?
4. Can I just turn the lights on after the blackout or should I ramp them up slowly? If so, how slowly?
5. Is it bad to throw a blanket over the entire tank or will that negatively impact gas exchange (note: I can remote the airline for the skimmer)? If it will hurt, how do I black it out without covering up the top opening?
6. Is there anything I should check on throughout the blackout period (e.g. could corals get hurt), or should I not peek?

Thanks for any help in answering any of these questions!
Mark

Have you got a confirmation of what type of dinos you have? If not we're shooting in the dark.

Personally I'm not a fan of blackouts. It stresses already stressed corals and rarely is anything more than a band aid. Not to mentions some types of dinos have the ability to encyst to come back weeks/months later when conditions are more favorable.

 

[alexanderthefishlover]

Have you got a confirmation of what type of dinos you have? If not we're shooting in the dark.

Personally I'm not a fan of blackouts. It stresses already stressed corals and rarely is anything more than a band aid. Not to mentions some types of dinos have the ability to encyst to come back weeks/months later when conditions are more favorable.

Large fell was the first but I bought a coral and I think more came on it looks like the gooey snotty stuff on rocks vs on the sand and glass with the other.

I’m treating with Dino x on October 2nd when it arrives from Quebec. No one in BC Vancouver sold Dino x here I searched and searched.

It’s gotten out of control and yet nutrients are pristine

 

[saltyhog]

Large fell was the first but I bought a coral and I think more came on it looks like the gooey snotty stuff on rocks vs on the sand and glass with the other.

I’m treating with Dino x on October 2nd when it arrives from Quebec. No one in BC Vancouver sold Dino x here I searched and searched.

It’s gotten out of control and yet nutrients are pristine

Dino X is what I refer to as the "nuclear" approach. There are lots of potential problems with its use and it doesn't always take care of the problem.

Large Cell Amphidinium is best treated with silicate dosing to illicit a competing diatom bloom. However, you need to have another look under the microscope because your description of "snotty stuff" doesn't sound like LCA. That sounds more like one the types that need to be treated with UV (Coolia, Ostreopsis).

 

[alexanderthefishlover]

Dino X is what I refer to as the "nuclear" approach. There are lots of potential problems with its use and it doesn't always take care of the problem.

Large Cell Amphidinium is best treated with silicate dosing to illicit a competing diatom bloom. However, you need to have another look under the microscope because your description of "snotty stuff" doesn't sound like LCA. That sounds more like one the types that need to be treated with UV (Coolia, Ostreopsis).

Have 2 UV filters running on a 25 p AIO. Done nothing. Dosed silicates before months ago did nothing pods, nothing, nutrient raises nothing, PH raised and temp, nothing….. nothing works. I’m at the nuclear approach if it doesn’t work I’m out and I’m converting to fresh

 

[saltyhog]

How long did you dose silicate and how exactly did you do it? (what product, how much and how big of a tank do you have?) It will almost always get the job done but it's not a quick fix. It can take weeks to a few months. Patience is a virtue when it comes to dinos!

 

[saltyhog]

Have 2 UV filters running on a 25 p AIO. Done nothing. Dosed silicates before months ago did nothing pods, nothing, nutrient raises nothing, PH raised and temp, nothing….. nothing works. I’m at the nuclear approach if it doesn’t work I’m out and I’m converting to fresh

Also what size and brand UV units did you use and what was your flow through the UV units?

 

[alexanderthefishlover]

Also what size and brand UV units did you use and what was your flow through the UV units?

2

AA GKM3W Mini Internal UV,Black,AAUV3W-B​

Plus a unstable UV light wand in to the AIO and no at all water is clear through

 

[alexanderthefishlover]

How long did you dose silicate and how exactly did you do it? (what product, how much and how big of a tank do you have?) It will almost always get the job done but it's not a quick fix. It can take weeks to a few months. Patience is a virtue when it comes to dinos!

Didn’t for a month and a half with no help against the Dino. Used bright well sponge excel as that was recommended.

Caused diatoms and didn’t stop Dino! Was hideous mess had to use phosguard after to get rid of silicates because the diatoms weren’t using them up and disappearing.

Such a mess

 

[saltyhog]

2

AA GKM3W Mini Internal UV,Black,AAUV3W-B​

Plus a unstable UV light wand in to the AIO and no at all water is clear through

That's the reason. Green Killing Machines are almost never effective. At once it was thought it was because of the built in pump that supplied too high a flow rate, but even the ones that don't have a built in pump have a very poor record against dinos.

You also need at least 1 watt /3 gallons of tank volume (flow rates about 2x tank volume/hour). Your UV was greatly undersized for dinos. You can't go by manufacturer's recommendations on sizing and flow rates....dinos are not even on the manufacturer's radar.