How to dose all for reef

[apb03]

I was merely replying to your comment about the perceived knock on its cost for all but a small tank. That really isn't true since they released the DIY components and 1600g powder offerings. The original liquid format that was a valid concern and typically repeated here and elsewhere. 1600g TM AFR makes up 10 liters for $76 bucks not including taxes. Hobbyist can do the math from there.

Edit: after re-reading this it seems to me that maybe I'm arguing with you. I'm not so apologies if it comes that way to you. Not my intent. Just putting it out there as a hobbyist who uses the 1600g powder offering and doses 90 ml/day. Convenience for me is more important and the cost isn't so bad at the moment. My break point is when I reach 100 - 110 ml/day. Then I'll have to find something different.

Yeah, I made a similar calculation. At some point, I'll probably have to transition to something more economical once my consumption hits a certain level, but I'm far from that right now.

I'm curious if anyone is dosing Kalkwasswer with AFR though. Would that be risky?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm curious if anyone is dosing Kalkwasswer with AFR though. Would that be risky?

That's a fine thing to do. It's cheaper, and will help boost the pH, which AFR does not do.

 

[apb03]

That's a fine thing to do. It's cheaper, and will help boost the pH, which AFR does not do.

Yeah that's what I was thinking. I love that my Salinity is stable with AFR but PH is getting no love at all, was hoping to start introducing Kalk alongside AFR as long as I don't have any issues with Calc and Alk being too high. I don't want to do a kalk stirrer and just stick with the soluble amount, but I suppose that limits me on my evaporation level. I guess in theory AFR+Kalk gives me a bit more leeway outside of the PH benefits of Kalk.

A problem down the road I suppose.

 

[Seansea]

One thing to watch is when you first start dosing you wont see much change for a few days. Seems it takes a couple days for the alk to register on your test kit. I overdosed a little at the start cuz i thought it would show an increase in first day but shot up a 1.3 dkh 3 days later. Now i know where i sit at 20 ml per day and holds my dkh right at 8. If you were use to using sodium bicarbonate it will not show as fast on test set.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't want to do a kalk stirrer and just stick with the soluble amount, but I suppose that limits me on my evaporation level.

A problem down the road I suppose.

FWIW, a reactor cannot produce more than saturation (unless you are dosing a slurry of solids and water), and often seem to produce less.

 

[vahegan]

Not a problem. Each reefer will decide what they can spend, and make the cost/convenience trade off.

If cost is an issue, you can make your own AFR. As far as I know, it is pure calcium formiate (I know that it can be very cheap, used for fighting ice on the roads, but purity grade may not be good enough if the chemical for that application is sourced). At one time I used to be making and dosing calcium formiate but then I stopped because in addition to calcium and alkalinity it introduces a significant amount of organic carbon into the tank. If dosed in excessive quantity, it may not only deplete the tank of phosphate and nitrate, but bacterial slime may start clogging the pipes on the pumps (I have seen this) and they may require weekly cleaning. Actually, I have started experimented with dosing organic calcium salts long before AFR was there. I tried different organic acids, and then stopped on formic acid because it has least amount of carbon per molecule. My main idea was to dose one single substance which will supplement both calcium and alkalinity and, at the same time, help with the export of excessive phosphate and nitrate. I was shouted at, when I presented the idea on Russian forums, everyone saying this will never work. And then, a few years after I have abandoned the experiments, AFR was offered on the market.
I produced calcium formiate by reacting powdered limestone with formic acid:

You can get a gallon of 90% formic acid for about $60 on ebay, and 10lb of limestone powder is probably around $25. One gallon of formic acid will yield about 5800 grams of calcium formiate for roughly the same price as for 1800g powdered AFR. It is hard to make powder, though, but you can get a concentrated water solution
Calcium formiate solubility in water 160g/liter, so formic acid needs to be diluted accordingly (don't dilute more than this or some of the formic acid may remain unreacted), so that all the resultant Ca(HCOO)2 will stay in solution. Limestone must be added in excess, to minimize the amount of unreacted acid in the solution. The reaction produces significant amount of carbon dioxide and the fumes of formic acid are pretty acrid, so must be carried out outdoors. Mix several times after CO2 forming stops, then wait until the cloudiness goes away and the excess of calcium carbonate precipitates, then carefully pour the calcium formiate solution into storage bottles.

P.S. I have also used calcium oxide (lime) instead of calcium carbonate: this reduces the amount of unreacted formic acid in the resultant solution, but its use results in excessive heat generation during the reaction, and is more dangerous.

100ml of formic acid is diluted with water to yield 1liter, to which is added 100 gram of lime (30% excess). This will result in 160g of concentrated calcium formiate solution (which when dosed to the tank will result in adding of almost 30g of organic carbon).

 

[Mako'sReef]

Update for anyone interested.
Im at day 37 now running A4R in my 20g nano.
I am dosing 30ml once a day to maintain and alk of 7.
Ca 400
Mag 1350

Very simple method and appears to work well in my system. Color and growth are good.

This should do well in any nano system, imo.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If cost is an issue, you can make your own AFR. As far as I know, it is pure calcium formiate (I know that it can be very cheap, used for fighting ice on the roads, but purity grade may not be good enough if the chemical for that application is sourced). At one time I used to be making and dosing calcium formiate but then I stopped because in addition to calcium and alkalinity it introduces a significant amount of organic carbon into the tank. If dosed in excessive quantity, it may not only deplete the tank of phosphate and nitrate, but bacterial slime may start clogging the pipes on the pumps (I have seen this) and they may require weekly cleaning. Actually, I have started experimented with dosing organic calcium salts long before AFR was there. I tried different organic acids, and then stopped on formic acid because it has least amount of carbon per molecule. My main idea was to dose one single substance which will supplement both calcium and alkalinity and, at the same time, help with the export of excessive phosphate and nitrate. I was shouted at, when I presented the idea on Russian forums, everyone saying this will never work. And then, a few years after I have abandoned the experiments, AFR was offered on the market.
I produced calcium formiate by reacting powdered limestone with formic acid:

You can get a gallon of 90% formic acid for about $60 on ebay, and 10lb of limestone powder is probably around $25. One gallon of formic acid will yield about 5800 grams of calcium formiate for roughly the same price as for 1800g powdered AFR. It is hard to make powder, though, but you can get a concentrated water solution
Calcium formiate solubility in water 160g/liter, so formic acid needs to be diluted accordingly (don't dilute more than this or some of the formic acid may remain unreacted), so that all the resultant Ca(HCOO)2 will stay in solution. Limestone must be added in excess, to minimize the amount of unreacted acid in the solution. The reaction produces significant amount of carbon dioxide and the fumes of formic acid are pretty acrid, so must be carried out outdoors. Mix several times after CO2 forming stops, then wait until the cloudiness goes away and the excess of calcium carbonate precipitates, then carefully pour the calcium formiate solution into storage bottles.

P.S. I have also used calcium oxide (lime) instead of calcium carbonate: this reduces the amount of unreacted formic acid in the resultant solution, but its use results in excessive heat generation during the reaction, and is more dangerous.

100ml of formic acid is diluted with water to yield 1liter, to which is added 100 gram of lime (30% excess). This will result in 160g of concentrated calcium formiate solution (which when dosed to the tank will result in adding of almost 30g of organic carbon).

Where have you seen inexpensive calcium formate? I did not know it was used for de-icing.

 

[vahegan]

Where have you seen inexpensive calcium formate? I did not know it was used for de-icing.

This usage probably depends on the country. They used it for deicing in post-soviet collapse countries... Apparently, manufactured in Russia, sold in 50lb sacs. However, I am sure that it is a poor grade chemical for such use, may be contaminated with whatever harmful impurities. I prefer to make mine at home using lab-grade calcium carbonate and formic acid, as I described above. It's far less difficult as it may sound.

P.S. I have seen calcium formate cheap (around $1/kg) from Russian suppliers and was assuming they make it locally (providing that it is mostly used for deicing and the sheer amount of that in Russia). It seems that I was wrong, I just paid attention to the bags: as most other things, it is manufactured in China

 

[buruskeee]

Bumping an old thread.

I don’t have to stick with the mixing instructions right? Like if I want an easier time to mix I can double the RODI amount and double the dose amount to get the exact same dosage right?

For example, 2L of water with 160g of the power and 2ml would be equivalent to 1ml of what the label says?

 

[brycenelson]

Bumping an old thread.

I don’t have to stick with the mixing instructions right? Like if I want an easier time to mix I can double the RODI amount and double the dose amount to get the exact same dosage right?

For example, 2L of water with 160g of the power and 2ml would be equivalent to 1ml of what the label says?

I don’t see why mixing in bigger batches would be a problem but the powder has a longer shelf life than after mixing just like salt

 

[buruskeee]

I don’t see why mixing in bigger batches would be a problem but the powder has a longer shelf life than after mixing just like salt

I mean same amount of powder with double the water so it doesn’t take as long to stir/mix.

 

[brycenelson]

I mean same amount of powder with double the water so it doesn’t take as long to stir/mix.

Oh I see what you are saying I am unsure about it tho because it might dilute something I would try to contact tropic marine to see what they say

 

[Pistondog]

Oh I see what you are saying I am unsure about it tho because it might dilute something I would try to contact tropic marine to see what they say

Of course this works, just have to double the dose volume since the concentration is halved.

 

[Kasrift]

Good choice, i've been using it for a while now. I mix up 6 scoops with 1000ML of RODI. I'm currently dosing 25ml a day (throughout the day) of AFR on roughly 125g tank - I've been steady for months now at 8.5dkh, 450Cal, 1320mg. I also dose 5ML a day of Tropic Marins balling B (alk). I do that because you'll find that if your tank alk starts to drop but your Calcium and Mag stay consistent, adding more AFR wont necessarily increase your alk. One other thing to mention is the end tip of the dosing line will get crusty and hard, so just keep an eye on that.

I’d say this isn’t quite correct. Everyone will have different consumption of elements based on livestock. I have a heavily coral stocked 32 gallon tank and only measure alk. I have it dialed in and consistent, but add magnesium mid week between water changes because it gets consumed more. I attribute this corraline algae having to constantly regrow due to my tuxedo urchin.

 

[Kasrift]

Bumping an old thread.

I don’t have to stick with the mixing instructions right? Like if I want an easier time to mix I can double the RODI amount and double the dose amount to get the exact same dosage right?

For example, 2L of water with 160g of the power and 2ml would be equivalent to 1ml of what the label says?

I microwave the water to heat it up then mix the powder with a Magnetic stirrer. I also add double the water, but after I mix it.

 

[buruskeee]

Of course this works, just have to double the dose volume since the concentration is halved.

I’m just curious if there’s a specific reason it’s 160g mixed to 1L, or if it’s just to get universal dosing instructions easier. Like if the solution doesn’t bond as effectively or something like that.

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

Bumping an old thread.

I don’t have to stick with the mixing instructions right? Like if I want an easier time to mix I can double the RODI amount and double the dose amount to get the exact same dosage right?

For example, 2L of water with 160g of the power and 2ml would be equivalent to 1ml of what the label says?

This is your friend....
mixing up a batch as we speak.

 

[Pistondog]

I’m just curious if there’s a specific reason it’s 160g mixed to 1L, or if it’s just to get universal dosing instructions easier. Like if the solution doesn’t bond as effectively or something like that.

To match the concentration of the pre mixed liquid form

 

[Hans-Werner]

’m just curious if there’s a specific reason it’s 160g mixed to 1L, or if it’s just to get universal dosing instructions easier. Like if the solution doesn’t bond as effectively or something like that.

The suggested concentration is low enough to still be completely dissolved and high enough to form a stable solution due to its high concentration. The high concentration of the organic calcium salt prevents the growth of bacteria and fungi that might grow at lower concentrations.