How to raise nutrients “naturally”?
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Belgian Anthias
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Raising nutrients naturally!
Raising nutrient availability is just adding enough food, as long the carrying capacity of the system allows it.
Feeding the end-users directly or indirectly?
If fed directly the choice can be made between high and or low protein food which will influence heterotrophic and autotrophic growth rates by influencing the C/N ratio. If fed indirectly the nutrient availability for the end-users will be natural living food and the nutrient reserve can be managed easily by modifying the used F2 media to the needs. In LNS and VLNS the nutrients cycled in the system are limited available. A skimmer is removing organics constantly but very selective, creating an imbalance. By using the indirect method this imbalance can be corrected.
Why one should add nitrate or and phosphate only and eliminate the remineralization processes producing it?
A nitrate reserve is easily made by increasing the nitrification capacity but the total nitrogen availability will be reduced. Also, If using nitrate as a nitrogen source growth rates are reduced considerably which means more nutrients will become available in the water column. But this does not increase the total nutrient availability. It is a choice between ammonia availability for growth or nitrate. If nutrients must be added to increase the nutrient availability, to avoid nutrient starvation , one should increase the total nutrient availability and avoid the nitrogen availability may cause phosphorus starvation. The risk for this is a lot less if nitrate is used as a nitrogen source as it does not support fast growth rates.
Raising nutrient availability is just adding enough food, as long the carrying capacity of the system allows it.
Feeding the end-users directly or indirectly?
If fed directly the choice can be made between high and or low protein food which will influence heterotrophic and autotrophic growth rates by influencing the C/N ratio. If fed indirectly the nutrient availability for the end-users will be natural living food and the nutrient reserve can be managed easily by modifying the used F2 media to the needs. In LNS and VLNS the nutrients cycled in the system are limited available. A skimmer is removing organics constantly but very selective, creating an imbalance. By using the indirect method this imbalance can be corrected.
Why one should add nitrate or and phosphate only and eliminate the remineralization processes producing it?
A nitrate reserve is easily made by increasing the nitrification capacity but the total nitrogen availability will be reduced. Also, If using nitrate as a nitrogen source growth rates are reduced considerably which means more nutrients will become available in the water column. But this does not increase the total nutrient availability. It is a choice between ammonia availability for growth or nitrate. If nutrients must be added to increase the nutrient availability, to avoid nutrient starvation , one should increase the total nutrient availability and avoid the nitrogen availability may cause phosphorus starvation. The risk for this is a lot less if nitrate is used as a nitrogen source as it does not support fast growth rates.
IMO - these a very wise thoughts. Everywhere in the aquarium litterature and forums you can read - brown diatom algae exist because you have silica in your top of or WC water. Get rid of that - and you get rid of the diatom problem. IMO - this is a myth. All of these ICP tests the last 4 - 5 years has shown that many, many very good aquariums without diatom problems contain silica in concentrations above 0.1 ppm. Silica will always be present in an aquarium where you have different types of calcium based rocks. There is another special feature among many diatoms, they are very good at utilizing very low levels of phosphate. IMO - it is the main reason why you see diatom bloom in the start - before the PO4 concentration is high enough for other algae. not the availability of Si - there is always Si present in a reef aquaria.
Sincerely Lasse
Belgian Anthias
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In a high input, high output system the nutrient reserve can easily be managed by managing the nutrient output. By making use of manageable bio-filters.
Belgian Anthias
Valuable Member
My opinion growth rates are not driven by high phosphorus availability, they are driven by the nitrogen source used. It has been shown different levels of phosphate do not influence algae growth much exempt if phosphorus becomes the limiting factor for growth.
Most bacteria inhibit nitrate-nitrogen uptake if ammonia is sensed. A lot of photo-autotrophs are able to use nitrogen in the ratio as available, some favor ammonia. In aquaria with a low nitrification capacity, photo-autotrophs favoring ammonia may outcompete the other autotrophs for nutrients made available in the water column. New cycling aquaria have a relative high ammonia content. The ability to make good use of other available nutrients of course is another main factor for winning the competition in a low nutrient environment but I think it will be more important for survival as for supporting high growth rates.
Most bacteria inhibit nitrate-nitrogen uptake if ammonia is sensed. A lot of photo-autotrophs are able to use nitrogen in the ratio as available, some favor ammonia. In aquaria with a low nitrification capacity, photo-autotrophs favoring ammonia may outcompete the other autotrophs for nutrients made available in the water column. New cycling aquaria have a relative high ammonia content. The ability to make good use of other available nutrients of course is another main factor for winning the competition in a low nutrient environment but I think it will be more important for survival as for supporting high growth rates.
Nitrogen starvation in aquarium - not a chance IMO. If there is no NH3/NH4, NO2 or NO3 - there is plenty of amino acids. Adding NO3 into an aquarium thats have serve cyanobacteria/dinoflagellates outbreak have - IMO - nothing to do with lack of nitrogen for photosynthetic growth - there is alway some useful species of nitrogen available for that. For me - it is a question of blocking or releasing available PO4 that´s metal bound in substrate and rocks.
Sincerely Lasse
Sincerely Lasse
Why not get some clean up crew to get rid of that algae? It might go away on it's own, but a good CUC along with some manual removal could solve the issue in a week or two. Unless you've got massive coral growth, I can almost guarantee the algae is where all your nutrients are going. Get rid of that and your nutrients will go up.
Randy Holmes-Farley
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Food grade sodium nitrate and sodium phosphate are generally available from amazon and Loudwolf. Potassium versions are OK, but with the nitrate one, you might need to monitor to make sure it doesn't rise too much long term.
This calculator can be used to figure amounts. Use the entry for the potassium salts and you will be close enough for the sodium versions (the sodium versions are just a little more potent). Exact amounts are not at all critical.
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I'd stop the Purple Tech, or at least realize the benefits of it are not what Kent claims.
The fine aragonite in it will not dissolve in seawater.
Belgian Anthias
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Are photo-autotrophs able to use amino-acids as a nitrogen source? For growth and or respiration? At high growth rates, nitrogen is best the limiting factor for growth. It is all about where the action is and the possible supply rate.
Its true that in natural seawater N is often the limited factor. i was talking about aquarium.
It have been shown that cells uptake of nitrogen is faster if it is in the form of amino-acid compared with the known fast uptake of NH4/NH3. This is also valid - IMO - for unicellular organisms like dinoflagellates and other photosynthetic bacteria and algae. This is the first link I found - there is probably more around.
Sincerely Lasse
Speculation by some, including myself, is that the benefits people see from dosing amino acids is that they add a small amount of a nitrogen source to a nitrogen starved tank and see reults. Perhaps by breaking down or due to them being assimilated to be used as a nitrogen source, particularly ammonium, which is likely a better nitrogen source than nitrates in general.
The above is supported anecdotally by my dosing nitrates and seeing no clear benefit in a tank with some measurable nutrients as opposed to one with seemingly dangerously low levels and seeing similar results to simply increasing a nitrogen source.
I have also played around plenty with dosing various nitrogen and phosporous sources. I though I was onto something years ago when I started dosing potassium nitrate and saw improvements, that was until my phosphate bottomed out and I had to start dosing that when acropora started to suffer and I did some serious damage to long established colonies. I became a crazy balancing act and I don't recommend dosing nitrogen or pohosphorous sources unlessd you're a very expeienced hobbyist because overdosing or not moinitor levels very closely can prove very damaging to corals in my experience. It's similar to carbon dosing and allowing levels to get dangerously low, many corals seem uneffected, but fast growing acropora and montipora seem to suffer greatly...
My advice to the OP, if you are sure it's too low of a nutrient level, restrict the air of you protein skimmer slighty, or better yet, add more fish and feed more. Adding more fish and feeding more, it's how I've balanced nutrients after a couple years of messing around with dosing with very mixed results.
Lastly, if someone is going to dose nitrogen anyway, it seems like ammonium might be the better choice since it's seems to be the more common nitrogen source for cnidarians.
waterskiguy
Active Member
What are your phosphates at? Sometimes, in my experience, it’s not about how little, or much, you have but rather the balance of nutrients in your tank. If you have near zero nitrate and higher phosphate, you can always add nitrate and your phosphate levels will naturally come down. You could always up there phosphate removal for similar reaction.
BlueDevil
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I have found that when I dose sodium nitrate (I too have a low nitrate issue) it raises my alk, is there any way to avoid that? I know that @Randy Holmes-Farley has mentioned in the past that dosing nitrate will raise alk. It’s a struggle as I have to constantly monitor my alk since I don’t need to dose nitrate daily.
I have never have problem with this - is it really this way. I cab´t see any reason why either sodium or potassium nitrate should rise alkalinity. pH yes if lack of N had had limited the photosynthesis but alk - no.
Sincerely Lasse
BlueDevil
Valuable Member
I’m not sure if this is still correct but see post #2 in this thread.
Alkalinity rising from dosing nitrate?
Testing my water last night after work, I noticed my dKH had gone from 8 to 9.1 without a rise in anything else in 3 days. I had tested Sat. at an 8 which where I try to keep it. I started dosing nitrate and have been checking that daily as everything else usually runs pretty stable. My wife...
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BlueDevil
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I had my dosers dialed in correctly to keep my Alk at ~8.0 dkh. After they had been dialed in, I checked my NO3 and they were pretty much non existent. So I started dosing LoudWolf sodium nitrate solution to raise and hold them at 1 daily. Ends up in 14.56 ml per day based on my water volume. I checked my Alk after 4 days and it was 9.5.
That’s what got me searching for a potential correlation and I stumbled upon the post.
That’s what got me searching for a potential correlation and I stumbled upon the post.
Your right - he claimed that. i put a question for him in that thread.
Sincerely Lasse
Sincerely Lasse
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