How to run your new tank without fallow and quarantine, post here for guidance live time, we track your tank out to eight months

[HuduVudu]

It seems to me the most efficient 'gas exchange' occurs at the surface of the tank water. I also tend to believe in higher flow in general - i.e. if you've even been snorkeling, etc - near reefs the amount of flow is insane compared to most tanks that I see.

Check out my build thread. My 20 is less than ideal when it comes to gas exchange and the new build incorporates all of the thinking that I have regarding proper gas exchange using flow.

Also I think since the thread you posted I have added the ERV to my house, that is also in the build thread.

 

[brandon429]

I think those are valid tenets to explore especially the o2

list some steps a common dry rock startup can apply

for example, marco rocks just completed cycle w fritz, caribsea sand and new sw and a couple clowns doing fine so far. list feeding or conditioning approaches that are helpful

reducing down to one fish might be required, or maybe conditioning up the tank a certain way before adding them but not from fallow timing. all legit options.

 

[brandon429]

more examples

in your mention of o2, we know from aquaculturing/02 studies that surface boil from airstones beat nearly every arrangement pumps can be aimed for degassing co2 and ingassing 02

so, perhaps airstones are better at a certain time than water pumps. something specific like that will really affect new startups helping to learn best disease control practices.

a weak bait bubbler does more for 02 than three powerheads aimed directly at the surface causing a rise, that's a big deal in fish holding systems and it certainly might be a big deal here too, we had no prior way for new keepers to actually increase their o2 levels, this is one certain way.

perhaps using an oxydator could be a competitive edge.

 

[Pntbll687]

I want to add one more thing about gas exchange and it's effect. I can't even count how many times I have heard someone say or seen someone post this:

I just added X fish to my tank and now all of my fish are starting to get ich.

This is so infuriatingly common. The answer to said problem always goes something like ... the fish you just added had ich and now you have introduced ich into the tank and now you need to QT and fallow etc ...

I have a different answer. What if the amount of O2 in the tank will only support X number of fish. What happens when you add one more fish after that? I posit that the O2 for the entire tank goes down and the CO2 goes up, and because of this the fishes start to stress and their immune systems get compromised.

This is one of the reasons that I believe in strong gas exchange. Better to lightly stock the tank and have plenty of O2 (and less CO2) than for your fish to always be riding the edge of disaster.

Correlation does not mean causation.

Just because dissolved O2 goes down slightly does not mean the drop in O2 caused the stress on the fish. It's more likely that the act of adding a new fish in a contained environment caused the stress.

If your hypothesis is right, then fish stores would almost never be able to add fish orders to their systems. The addition of 20+ fish (assuming you're right) would plummet oxygen levels and everything would die or at least struggle to survive.

Measuring Dissolved Oxygen Levels in Seawater | PME

The Scripps Institution of Oceanography is measuring dissolved oxygen levels in seawater, locally in San Diego and at the remote Palmyra Atoll.

www.pme.com

The amount of DO (dissolved oxygen) at the near shore location stayed constant, because it was more heavily influenced by physical action to create gas exchange (wind/waves).

The area that saw the highest oxygen saturation were on the reef where photosynthesis by coral algae and other plants took up CO2 and expelled oxygen into the water.

The difference in this is probably because there is only so much oxygen that can be exchanged through physical waves. The waves near shore are constant and oxygen levels remain almost unchanged. Much like our wavemakers breaking the surface, there is only so much oxygen those small ripples can transfer back into the tank. Yes, introducing a fish may cause O2 levels to dip slightly, they will return to "normal" pretty quickly.

Photosynthesis on the other hand can soak up CO2 much better.

In conclusion, if you want great oxygen levels in your aquarium....
1) have tons of corals
2) have a giant refugium with lots of different algaes.

HOW DISSOLVED OXYGEN AFFECTS FISH BEHAVIOUR

There is no doubt that the amount of dissolved oxygen in the water has a major impact on fish behaviour and survival. What actually is dissolved oxygen though, where does it come from and what happ…

activeanglingnz.com

"Saltwater fish and organisms have a higher tolerance for low dissolved oxygen concentrations as saltwater has a lower 100% air saturation than freshwater. In general, dissolved oxygen levels are about 20% less in seawater than in freshwater."

"Many tropical saltwater fish, especially those surrounding coral reefs, require higher levels of dissolved oxygen. Coral reefs are found in the euphotic zone (where light penetrates the water – usually not deeper than 70 m). Higher dissolved oxygen concentrations are generally found around coral reefs due to photosynthesis and aeration from eddies and breaking waves. These dissolved oxygen levels can fluctuate from 4-15 mg/L, though they usually remain around 5-8 mg/L, cycling between day photosynthesis production and night plant respiration. In terms of air saturation, this means that dissolved oxygen near coral reefs can easily range from 40-200%."

^^ Large dissolved oxygen swings from day to day do not lend well to your theory of a single fish causing oxygen levels to drop so far that it cause undo stress that can lead to ich outbreaks.

 

[brandon429]

this is why only actual tanks should be used in the discussion. Pauls thread is already 132 pages of theory and that is not a slight to his tank, its 100% disease free agreed.

this thread needs to be simply tank after tank posting pics, description, getting recommendations, we check back in July.

we want a dry rock setup, fritz recent cycle, normal sand and two clowns example repeated over and over as the test, that's the most common new tank setup.

 

[Jekyl]

I followed Paul's setup as best I could starting out. RUGF system, no sump, skimmer and a HoB filter for different media or just floss. I alternate through as many different kinds of frozen or live food I can get. I also purchased live rock or substrate from as many LFS as I could. Probably 4 or 5 different locations. I have never quarantined. I currently have 8 fish and a few different coral. Only lost 1 fish so far to suicide (jumped out). My tank is coming up on 2 years old currently. Still a short sample size but working for me.

 

[brandon429]

Jekyl that's a very specific arrangement and feedback, very helpful input. that's a plus one for the method from Paul's thread, nicely done. the duration lookback is very rare, very helpful 24 mos.

 

[HuduVudu]

so, perhaps airstones are better at a certain time than water pumps. something specific like that will really affect new startups helping to learn best disease control practices.

Salt creep from airstones is real. The better alternatives are protien skimmers or wet/drys. Since people don't like the nitrogen fixing from the wet/dry protien skimmers are probably better.

I also want to say that just because you are getting good equilibrium with the air in the house does not say that you will have good O2. You need to absolutely know what the air in your house is at. The best and cheapest proxy to determine this is a household CO2 test.

perhaps using an oxydator could be a competitive edge.

@atoll uses these to good affect.

EDIT: Oxydators don't need household O2 to be good.

 

[HuduVudu]

Just because dissolved O2 goes down slightly does not mean the drop in O2 caused the stress on the fish.

Are you sure that it is slight? Can you make this blanket statement about all aquariums? My friends household CO2 was 1400ppm, are you willing to make the same statements about his situation?

If your hypothesis is right, then fish stores would almost never be able to add fish orders to their systems. The addition of 20+ fish (assuming you're right) would plummet oxygen levels and everything would die or at least struggle to survive.

Your point? Have you worked in a fish store before? Perhaps you might want to look up the term loss leader.

The amount of DO (dissolved oxygen) at the near shore location stayed constant, because it was more heavily influenced by physical action to create gas exchange (wind/waves).

Seriously? You have never been near the ocean. The DO doesn't remain constant. Look up red tide.

The area that saw the highest oxygen saturation were on the reef where photosynthesis by coral algae and other plants took up CO2 and expelled oxygen into the water.

OMG really? You think this? The O2 content is supersaturated based on wave action not on coral synthesis. Most of the areas of the Gulf Coast where there is nothing but sandy bottoms have supersaturated O2 levels.

The difference in this is probably because there is only so much oxygen that can be exchanged through physical waves.

Corals can't supersaturate O2 levels. Waves can.

The waves near shore are constant and oxygen levels remain almost unchanged.

LOL I am really really shocked you are saying these things. They are patently false. If you have ever been diving you know that you can't dive most of the year. Why because of visibility. This means some parts of the year there is very little wave action stirring up silt so the visibility is high. Other parts the wave action is huge and there is so much crap in the water you can't see your hand in front of your face.

Much like our wavemakers breaking the surface, there is only so much oxygen those small ripples can transfer back into the tank.

You have never seen the ocean. This much is clear.

Yes, introducing a fish may cause O2 levels to dip slightly, they will return to "normal" pretty quickly.

And you tested this? You are sure?

Ok, I give up. What you are saying is so patently mis-informed I am not going to bother to respond.

Suffice it to say I have been through typhoons and hurricanes. Wave action is real and we can't even hope to emulate the level of oxygen that is present on the reef at any given time.

Please if you don't understand then get your popcorn sit back and watch.

 

[brandon429]

we should be looking for new tank posts here or in the fish disease forum, and sending them messages to consider this post. I think it w take some sales work to get entrants for actual testing.

 

[dbowman5]

i did not have enough swimming poopers in my tank (one clown, one damsel, one skunk shrimp and CUC). In a 90 gal vol. system i have a curve 5 bubble magus skimmer. i have the skimmer turned off due to cyano. once off for two weeks the cyano is disappearing from the display and sump, and the cheato is starting to grow in my sump. i wonder if i opened the drain in my cup, into the sump would i get the aeration benefit without the over-stripping of a too-big skimmer? i have a lot of amphipods, brittle stars and bristleworms. a crop of baby snails and other cuc. To address the lack of poop last Saturday i added 6 green chromis after an hour or so drip acclimation.
i feed pellets, nori, an assortment of frozen food, freeze-dried krill, reefroids, spirulina, when i have redworms left over from fishing i pop them into the tank. i am going without socks and notice that anything in the sump tends to get into the DT, and vice versa, including fry in the past.
The thought i am playing with is to allow the overflow pipes to end above the water in the sump to add more air mixing since the sump is in the basement and the noise/splashing would be a lesser issue than it would be in an under tank sump. your thoughts?

 

[ChrisOFL]

Hopefully my tank can help with this discussion since it is fairly new, and I don't believe that quarantine methods are necessary for success. Paul is a big reason for this. Anyone who can do something successfully for 50 years is clearly doing it right. I wasn't planning on starting a build thread for my new tank but I wanted to contribute to this thread. I also feel like I already employ a lot of the things being discussed between gas exchange, not overstocking, and heavy feeding.

I re-started my tank the middle of November 2020 so it's coming up on 4 months old. I recently moved and broke down my old tank as it was over run with algae and not worth trying to move with the livestock I had. My rock sat outside on the porch for about 3 months. I'm not equating this to buying marco dry-rock but it definitely wasn't live rock. I also have a bare bottom because I plan to grow encrusting montiporas across the bottom.

The tank is 75 gallons with mostly Haitian rock. Sump is a 3rd Gen R-100 from Eshopps. My overflow is setup so that the drain pulls a vortex sucking air down and into the sump, the sump intake area is just full of bubbles. It's actually quiet and my skimmer pump is louder than the overflow. The skimmer is an Aquamaxx CO-1, I don't think I'd be able to feed as much as I do without the oversized skimmer. Refugium just has my glow in the dark rock and whatever grows naturally from the light the leaks down through the tank. Flow is provided by Icecap 2K on random between 30%-90% and two Jebao OW-25, alternating pulse at 30%.
Here is the tank the day before I added my first fish.

I cycled my tank using ammonia and Prodibio Start Up. It took about 5 days to complete the cycle with the tank processing 1ppm ammonia in 24 hours but I waited another week before adding my first fish. The first fish in my tank was a Lemonpeel Tang, I'm a risk taker, added on Dec. 4, 2020. My belief in adding fish is that it should be done one at a time and spaced out about a month in between. I only add multiple fish if they are going to be paired, like clownfish or a trio of blennies, etc. I like to make sure the new fish gets big and fat, has had time to adjust to the aquarium, and find a home.

After cycling the tank, I dosed a bottle of ARC Reef Pink Fusion Coralline Algae. I was also dosing Vibrant for Reef Aquariums for the first three weeks to add bacterial biodiversity in an attempt to prevent cyano and dinos from being a major issue. I stopped dosing Vibrant and switched to Microbacter7 because of the issues I had read about with SPS corals. I added my ORA Goldflake Maroons on December 30 and a bubble tip anemone a week later. About a week after these additions my tank exploded with cyano and dinos, completely covering the rocks for all of January. I dealt with the dinos, I'm going to claim Microbacter Clean is what made the difference and anyone who has dinos should try it. I added a "test" montipora at the beginning of February. On February 7th I added my fourth fish, a Cherub Angelfish. None of the fish have ever shown any signs of disease other than my tang occasionally rubbing it's sides on the bottom of the tank after adding my clowns, but I'm not sure if that was really anything.

Over the past two weeks I've added more coral frags as the coralline algae has really started to explode and my "test" frag has held it's color and polyp extension. I only feed LRS Reef Frenzy, three times a day, and the tang has algae available on a clip all day long. All my fish are thicc and I plan on adding a Blackline Blenny whenever my LFS is able to get one for me. That will probably be my last fish for a while.

I currently dose 20mL Microbacter7 and 40mL Microbacter Clean every week. Nitrates between 1-2ppm and phosphates are still 0.00. I dose NeoNitro when nitrates drop below 1ppm and NeoPhos based on the film algae growth (so about every 3 days).
Here is a picture of the tank currently.

 

[HuduVudu]

i did not have enough swimming poopers in my tank (one clown, one damsel, one skunk shrimp and CUC). In a 90 gal vol. system i have a curve 5 bubble magus skimmer. i have the skimmer turned off due to cyano. once off for two weeks the cyano is disappearing from the display and sump, and the cheato is starting to grow in my sump. i wonder if i opened the drain in my cup, into the sump would i get the aeration benefit without the over-stripping of a too-big skimmer? i have a lot of amphipods, brittle stars and bristleworms. a crop of baby snails and other cuc. To address the lack of poop last Saturday i added 6 green chromis after an hour or so drip acclimation.
i feed pellets, nori, an assortment of frozen food, freeze-dried krill, reefroids, spirulina, when i have redworms left over from fishing i pop them into the tank. i am going without socks and notice that anything in the sump tends to get into the DT, and vice versa, including fry in the past.
The thought i am playing with is to allow the overflow pipes to end above the water in the sump to add more air mixing since the sump is in the basement and the noise/splashing would be a lesser issue than it would be in an under tank sump. your thoughts?

I ran into the same problem, but my 20 was so bad for gas exchange I couldn't really remove the HOB skimmer I had. Here is what I came up with. I have this pump controlled using the OSC function on my APEX.

 

[atoll]

Are you sure that it is slight? Can you make this blanket statement about all aquariums? My friends household CO2 was 1400ppm, are you willing to make the same statements about his situation?


Your point? Have you worked in a fish store before? Perhaps you might want to look up the term loss leader.


Seriously? You have never been near the ocean. The DO doesn't remain constant. Look up red tide.


OMG really? You think this? The O2 content is supersaturated based on wave action not on coral synthesis. Most of the areas of the Gulf Coast where there is nothing but sandy bottoms have supersaturated O2 levels.


Corals can't supersaturate O2 levels. Waves can.


LOL I am really really shocked you are saying these things. They are patently false. If you have ever been diving you know that you can't dive most of the year. Why because of visibility. This means some parts of the year there is very little wave action stirring up silt so the visibility is high. Other parts the wave action is huge and there is so much crap in the water you can't see your hand in front of your face.


You have never seen the ocean. This much is clear.


And you tested this? You are sure?

Ok, I give up. What you are saying is so patently mis-informed I am not going to bother to respond.

Suffice it to say I have been through typhoons and hurricanes. Wave action is real and we can't even hope to emulate the level of oxygen that is present on the reef at any given time.

Please if you don't understand then get your popcorn sit back and watch.

We can create oxygen levels akin to that in the Ocean, sounds like you have never used an Oxydator or have you? You can achieve super saturation O2 levels with an Oxydator.

 

[HuduVudu]

We can create oxygen levels akin to that in the Ocean, sounds like you have never used an Oxydator or have you? You can achieve super saturation O2 levels with an Oxydator.

LOL I edited my post to reflect that.

No I have not used and oxydator before, but I definitely see it as a valid and valuable way to oxygenate a tank.

 

[MnFish1]

this is why only actual tanks should be used in the discussion. Pauls thread is already 132 pages of theory and that is not a slight to his tank, its 100% disease free agreed.

this thread needs to be simply tank after tank posting pics, description, getting recommendations, we check back in July.

we want a dry rock setup, fritz recent cycle, normal sand and two clowns example repeated over and over as the test, that's the most common new tank setup.

I disagree with this Brandon. For example I have a 100 gallon tank - I do your setup - I add 2 clownfish. They will probably not succumb to any disease. I take a 10 gallon tank - add 2 clownfish - otherwise the same - the likelihood of disease is far higher. If 2 weeks later I add 2 fire fish to each tank - the disease likelihood again is far higher in the smaller tank (for many reasons). Besides - more people can just tell their stories of success/failure already - without waiting for 50 new 'setups'. Right? (Like I pointed out my experience with No QT). We already have the data/scenarios - people just need to post. OR - perhaps when they add new fish to an old tank.

 

[MnFish1]

Salt creep from airstones is real. The better alternatives are protien skimmers or wet/drys. Since people don't like the nitrogen fixing from the wet/dry protien skimmers are probably better.

I also want to say that just because you are getting good equilibrium with the air in the house does not say that you will have good O2. You need to absolutely know what the air in your house is at. The best and cheapest proxy to determine this is a household CO2 test.


@atoll uses these to good affect.

EDIT: Oxydators don't need household O2 to be good.

I do not think that CO2 levels in the house necessarily mean lower O2. I do not think that O2 levels drop in the average house enough to affect the dissolved O2 in a tank. If it did - all the skimmers, etc wouldn't help - because you would then be equilibrating with a lower O2.

 

[MnFish1]

Correlation does not mean causation.

Just because dissolved O2 goes down slightly does not mean the drop in O2 caused the stress on the fish. It's more likely that the act of adding a new fish in a contained environment caused the stress.

If your hypothesis is right, then fish stores would almost never be able to add fish orders to their systems. The addition of 20+ fish (assuming you're right) would plummet oxygen levels and everything would die or at least struggle to survive.

Measuring Dissolved Oxygen Levels in Seawater | PME

The Scripps Institution of Oceanography is measuring dissolved oxygen levels in seawater, locally in San Diego and at the remote Palmyra Atoll.

www.pme.com

The amount of DO (dissolved oxygen) at the near shore location stayed constant, because it was more heavily influenced by physical action to create gas exchange (wind/waves).

The area that saw the highest oxygen saturation were on the reef where photosynthesis by coral algae and other plants took up CO2 and expelled oxygen into the water.

The difference in this is probably because there is only so much oxygen that can be exchanged through physical waves. The waves near shore are constant and oxygen levels remain almost unchanged. Much like our wavemakers breaking the surface, there is only so much oxygen those small ripples can transfer back into the tank. Yes, introducing a fish may cause O2 levels to dip slightly, they will return to "normal" pretty quickly.

Photosynthesis on the other hand can soak up CO2 much better.

In conclusion, if you want great oxygen levels in your aquarium....
1) have tons of corals
2) have a giant refugium with lots of different algaes.

HOW DISSOLVED OXYGEN AFFECTS FISH BEHAVIOUR

There is no doubt that the amount of dissolved oxygen in the water has a major impact on fish behaviour and survival. What actually is dissolved oxygen though, where does it come from and what happ…

activeanglingnz.com

"Saltwater fish and organisms have a higher tolerance for low dissolved oxygen concentrations as saltwater has a lower 100% air saturation than freshwater. In general, dissolved oxygen levels are about 20% less in seawater than in freshwater."

"Many tropical saltwater fish, especially those surrounding coral reefs, require higher levels of dissolved oxygen. Coral reefs are found in the euphotic zone (where light penetrates the water – usually not deeper than 70 m). Higher dissolved oxygen concentrations are generally found around coral reefs due to photosynthesis and aeration from eddies and breaking waves. These dissolved oxygen levels can fluctuate from 4-15 mg/L, though they usually remain around 5-8 mg/L, cycling between day photosynthesis production and night plant respiration. In terms of air saturation, this means that dissolved oxygen near coral reefs can easily range from 40-200%."

^^ Large dissolved oxygen swings from day to day do not lend well to your theory of a single fish causing oxygen levels to drop so far that it cause undo stress that can lead to ich outbreaks.

And the lower O2 in the tank - the faster the equilibration with the air. It shouldn't make any difference (adding fish).

 

[MnFish1]

Are you sure that it is slight? Can you make this blanket statement about all aquariums? My friends household CO2 was 1400ppm, are you willing to make the same statements about his situation?


Your point? Have you worked in a fish store before? Perhaps you might want to look up the term loss leader.


Seriously? You have never been near the ocean. The DO doesn't remain constant. Look up red tide.


OMG really? You think this? The O2 content is supersaturated based on wave action not on coral synthesis. Most of the areas of the Gulf Coast where there is nothing but sandy bottoms have supersaturated O2 levels.


Corals can't supersaturate O2 levels. Waves can.


LOL I am really really shocked you are saying these things. They are patently false. If you have ever been diving you know that you can't dive most of the year. Why because of visibility. This means some parts of the year there is very little wave action stirring up silt so the visibility is high. Other parts the wave action is huge and there is so much crap in the water you can't see your hand in front of your face.


You have never seen the ocean. This much is clear.


And you tested this? You are sure?

Ok, I give up. What you are saying is so patently mis-informed I am not going to bother to respond.

Suffice it to say I have been through typhoons and hurricanes. Wave action is real and we can't even hope to emulate the level of oxygen that is present on the reef at any given time.

Please if you don't understand then get your popcorn sit back and watch.

1. Your comments are not really inviting the discussion you wanted to have (sorry) or do you feel differently?
2. There are many areas in the ocean (barring storms) where one can dive year around. The exception does not prove the rule or?
3. Have you tested room Co2 with dissolved O2 concentrations I assume you have - that is the correlation?
4. His point (I believe) about oxygen was that in TANKS there is a large difference in O2 during the day - due to coral/algae respiration. (Assuming you dont have a refugium/algae reactor on at night).
5. You seem to be the one making blanket statements. Your friends 1400 ppm CO2 house may also be an exception.
6. it seems to me this is not designed to be a 'discussion' its designed as the other thread was - to prove that your ideas are the 'correct' ones.

 

[brandon429]

self reporting validates a lot of the fallow and qt work, it seems useful there as feedback

also added to is that the top science folks for fish disease dissected it all in person, listed direct steps for others to try and feedback and ran it themselves, that's why qt and fallow carries the bulk of the correction work nowadays.

why can't we get non qt approaches to pan out that way, same feedback rates at least 80% happy at month 6 would be a significant change.

as of now we can reliably track dry rock starts to a 6-8 mo fish loss.