How to run your new tank without fallow and quarantine, post here for guidance live time, we track your tank out to eight months

Lukeluke

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Thanks @Paul B !

I'll be picking up some live rock from the LFS this weekend. I wondered if I should give it a bit of time to allow whatever is going to die off the rock to die and stabilize a little before the first fish go in. Say a week or so. Based on your suggestion to feed the rock, it sounds like that waiting period is a good idea.

Fresh clams don't seem to be a thing in my area, but I'm looking into getting some white worms going along with whatever fresh seafood I can track down. Seems like mostly fish and shrimp.

I think my scape does an OK job of giving things a place to hide. I will have to re-arrange a bit when the live rock goes in anyway. I have more sand going in too.
20210605_204110.jpg


I would consider doing water changes regularly - as compared to 'when the tests are bad'. The purpose of water changes is to prevent the 'test from getting bad'.

Waiting for "bad" wasn't what I meant. Just not arbitrary. If nothing else just to record and see how everything behaves before settling into a regular schedule. Once I've established some kind of pattern I can make the most of water changes. Particularly early on when I'm only supporting a couple of fish. If that makes sense.

Granted, I'm a dummy with no experience :), but being systematic about it makes intuitive sense to me. Rather than changing out 10-20% a week just because.
 
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salty joe

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Fresh clams don't seem to be a thing in my area, but I'm looking into getting some white worms going along with whatever fresh seafood I can track down. Seems like mostly fish and shrimp.
Most grocery stores have a seafood area with live clams, oysters and mussels. Some are seasonal but almost always one of those are available.
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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for reality balance


fallow and quarantine skip advocates are killing other people’s reefs, but the catch is you have to sample reality from a neutral zone where people actually admit loss. In this thread, nobody will ever have loss (reported, stated, admitted, buys replacement fish tells nobody) but in real life out in the forum or disease forum, we see the truth every day.


we needed a ballast of truth so far, at least one every eight pages here. Luke I know you‘ll hate me for not joining ranks, but no feed you make will prevent what happened above in a dry rock setup.
 
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Paul B

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In this thread, nobody will ever have loss (reported, stated, admitted, buys replacement fish tells nobody) but in real life out in the forum or disease forum, we see the truth every day.
I had both of my ruby red dragonettes jump out,


My last copperband which was pretty old got a neurological disease and couldn't see where the food was so he croaked.

One of my pair of blue stripped pipefish was bitten almost in half from a much larger Janss pipefish and croaked.
2 new small cardinals I put in the tank 2 weeks ago and never saw them again, presumably dead.
My last moorish Idol stopped eating after 5 years and was found deceased.
My female mandarin became eggbound and croaked.



This guy jumped out.


These guys eventually starved



dead



These guys died of old age at about ten years old.



This guy I had for dinner.



Virtually every fish I bought over 30 years ago died and I can list them all but it would take weeks.
I normally post if a fish dies if I find it interesting. That is not the point as we all lose fish. But we should never, like never lose a single fish to a communicable disease like ich, velvet, uronoma or any number of things people's fish die from and I "never, like Never do because immune fish don't do that.

If your fish are dying from those things, you are doing something wrong. :cool:
 

Lukeluke

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No hate Brandon. I'm a dummy that kept a freshwater tank 15 years ago. What do I know? I have no ego wrapped up in this one way or the other. Worst case, I fail miserably, and there's more evidence for QT being mandatory. There's every chance after 6 months I decide I hate this and end up selling all the gear whether the tank crashes or not. And I have no problem posting my failure/resignation if or when it happens.

FWIW it won't be a 100% dry rock start. Water is mixed and ready to go in today, and I'll be picking up some live rock from the LFS this weekend. Unless by "dry rock start" you mean rock that hasn't spent any time in an actual ocean. There will be at least some relatively established rock in the tank to start. First fish will go in the following weekend, assuming the LFS has clowns in stock.
 

MnFish1

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Thanks @Paul B !

I'll be picking up some live rock from the LFS this weekend. I wondered if I should give it a bit of time to allow whatever is going to die off the rock to die and stabilize a little before the first fish go in. Say a week or so. Based on your suggestion to feed the rock, it sounds like that waiting period is a good idea.

Fresh clams don't seem to be a thing in my area, but I'm looking into getting some white worms going along with whatever fresh seafood I can track down. Seems like mostly fish and shrimp.

I think my scape does an OK job of giving things a place to hide. I will have to re-arrange a bit when the live rock goes in anyway. I have more sand going in too.
20210605_204110.jpg




Waiting for "bad" wasn't what I meant. Just not arbitrary. If nothing else just to record and see how everything behaves before settling into a regular schedule. Once I've established some kind of pattern I can make the most of water changes. Particularly early on when I'm only supporting a couple of fish. If that makes sense.

Granted, I'm a dummy with no experience :), but being systematic about it makes intuitive sense to me. Rather than changing out 10-20% a week just because.
The potential problem with your idea about water changes is that Nitrate and Phosphate are not the only things that you do water changes for. Doing 'regular' water changes seems more 'systematic' to me. I'm not saying every week necessarily - especially when you don't have a lot of fish, etc. In other words if your tests are 'off', thats a reason to do a water change, If your tests are not 'off', to me (i.e. just my opinion), thats not necessarily a reason not to do a water change. Good luck with your live rock!
 

MnFish1

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for reality balance


fallow and quarantine skip advocates are killing other people’s reefs, but the catch is you have to sample reality from a neutral zone where people actually admit loss. In this thread, nobody will ever have loss (reported, stated, admitted, buys replacement fish tells nobody) but in real life out in the forum or disease forum, we see the truth every day.


we needed a ballast of truth so far, at least one every eight pages here. Luke I know you‘ll hate me for not joining ranks, but no feed you make will prevent what happened above in a dry rock setup.
I will respectively disagree (as another 'ballast of truth'). I started my tank with 'dry rock'. I had no disease. I did have one fist sized piece of live rock that I took from the tank I upgraded from. In my experience (and I have had tanks with all live rock - from the ocean) - over time, much of the living 'stuff' dies/out competes itself. As you put corals on rocks, etc - the shading as they grow also takes away space for the 'living stuff'. I do not think there is any reason to suggest that adding 'live rock' helps minimize or mitigate disease as compared to allowing 'dead' rock to become 'live rock' - which it rapidly does, IME.
 
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Lukeluke

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The potential problem with your idea about water changes is that Nitrate and Phosphate are not the only things that you do water changes for. Doing 'regular' water changes seems more 'systematic' to me. I'm not saying every week necessarily - especially when you don't have a lot of fish, etc. In other words if your tests are 'off', thats a reason to do a water change, If your tests are not 'off', to me (i.e. just my opinion), thats not necessarily a reason not to do a water change. Good luck with your live rock!
Fair point. From what I've gathered, water changes primarily:

1. Remove the end products of things added to the tank. Mostly food. Food to poop to nutrients. Nutrient build up potentially bad. Change water to remove excess.

2. Put things back being consumed/bound by life in the tank. Calc, mag, trace, particularly when dealing with corals. Not so much with just fish.

What else is going on that I'm not thinking of that makes a water change other than to resolve the above worthwhile?

As it seems with most things reefing, opinions are all over the place. From never change, just dose various chemicals, to change when needed, to change every week, to automate and constantly drip a little out and in throughout the day. I don't want to give the impression I'm being obstinate, and ignoring advice because "I know better." Just trying to sort through it all. ;Bored
 

MnFish1

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Fair point. From what I've gathered, water changes primarily:

1. Remove the end products of things added to the tank. Mostly food. Food to poop to nutrients. Nutrient build up potentially bad. Change water to remove excess.

2. Put things back being consumed/bound by life in the tank. Calc, mag, trace, particularly when dealing with corals. Not so much with just fish.

What else is going on that I'm not thinking of that makes a water change other than to resolve the above worthwhile?

As it seems with most things reefing, opinions are all over the place. From never change, just dose various chemicals, to change when needed, to change every week, to automate and constantly drip a little out and in throughout the day. I don't want to give the impression I'm being obstinate, and ignoring advice because "I know better." Just trying to sort through it all. ;Bored
Most people that don't do water changes - check ICP tests frequently (the Triton method) - or they have excessive nutrient export systems (algae, refugia, etc etc). From my perspective (and you're right there are 500 opinions on everything) - doing regular water changes mitigates the need for measuring all of the other things - dissolved organics, ICP tests, etc) - all of which cost money - and have problems of their own. The problem - just like there is not a linear relationship between PO4 and NO3, etc - there is not a linear relationship between the stuff 'we can't measure'. Hope this makes a little sense
 

RipVanWinkle

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How’s your flame angel and other fish doing now?
Everybody’s doing great, anemones are getting really big, I don’t test any parameters and have done an impressive total of 1 water change in the past 3 months. I don’t really ever touch anything in the tank. One favia frag and one 5$ acro I tried are my only casualties. I’m growing palys, zoas, galaxia, shrooms, Xenia, rock flower nems, all seem thriving. Guy at the fish shop told me my tank needed to run for 6 months before I added coral. Ha.
0F683E0F-CD0D-4AB9-AF95-6286C9831C19.jpeg
 

zalick

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Everybody’s doing great, anemones are getting really big, I don’t test any parameters and have done an impressive total of 1 water change in the past 3 months. I don’t really ever touch anything in the tank. One favia frag and one 5$ acro I tried are my only casualties. I’m growing palys, zoas, galaxia, shrooms, Xenia, rock flower nems, all seem thriving. Guy at the fish shop told me my tank needed to run for 6 months before I added coral. Ha.
0F683E0F-CD0D-4AB9-AF95-6286C9831C19.jpeg
Looks great!
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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Non quarantine non fallow advocates are responsible for this one too in my opinion, buckets of fish lost to this claim. Even today I click the fish disease forum, I see Jays method consulted and asked for in every final stage post, I see not a flipping aspect of this thread where work is due. I am legit mad at y’all and not fake mad like a cycling post where we argue about .25 ammonia for ten pages. If I posted any method that killed nano reefs at the rate these claims made in this thread kill fish, I’d be drummed out of nanodom as a saboteur.


I think you all are dealing in advice that has such low repeatability it’s 100% irresponsible to advocate it further, but I know you will not stop now as the momentum is too big to stop.


proponents against fallow and quarantine have absolutely no bar to attain before they tout the approach as best practices. Merely post their own pics for 170 pages and that’s all it takes, the fact these methods are reversed and undone in the fish disease forum as the treatment method speaks volumes.


people posting in this thread have an angle to support Paul and his approach. I dont think true losses will be reported here. I think it’ll be rosy roseness for the next eighty pages unless balances are linked.


The folks I link to you had no such goal they just wanted happy fish and are currently getting opposite of that by following any aspect of this thread. Miami reef weighed options carefully and selected what was written here vs what is written in the disease forum and I’m mad you’re killing his excellent fish with terrible low repeatability science.
 
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Jekyl

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Non quarantine non fallow advocates are responsible for this one too in my opinion, buckets of fish lost to this claim.
That's not fair. Fish in that post was added to a new system.
 

Paul B

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I have to interject something here. The title of this thread is:

How to run your new tank "without fallow and quarantine", post here for guidance live time, we track your tank out to eight months.​


It doesn't say: Paul B is the God of fish and advocates his system so we should follow him to the ends of the earth. I didn't even post on here until the 80th post and I never pushed my system on anyone. Even in my book I mention Noobs should not use my system, not read my book and quarantine at least for a while and I also never advised anyone to read my book. I barely read it. :oops:

I think my system is a healthy, easy system to replicate that works for "me" and if someone asks me my advice, I give it from what I have learned.
(I get PMs on 7 forums every day)

I also always say, if you want to learn this hobby, find someone with an old, healthy tank that you like and follow what they do, but not necessarily me. If you like Jays tank or Brandon's tank or Jacques Cousteau's tank follow them.

I myself liked the way Robert Straughn (The Father of Salt Water Fish Keeping) and Lee Chin Eng ran their tanks, a natural way so I learned their practices which was 50 years ago and I realize things have changed.

Now there is much more information and more medications. Unfortunately there also seems to be much more diseased fish and crashed tanks.

I don't advocate quarantine or no quarantine. I advocate healthy fish through immunity that in my opinion is created only by natural living conditions and proper food, not just what it says on commercial food packages.

IMO, The only way a fish can live a natural life is to eat what it was designed to eat and that is food with bacteria and everything else in the sea in it. Shoot me, but thats the secret and the fish know it.

This hobby seems simple to me but we, for some reason want to complicate it . The fish in the sea know what they are doing, know where to live and what to eat with no help from us.

All we should do, IMO is try as well as we can to replicate that in a small tank. Yes, of course a small tank is not natural but we decided to get into this hobby for some reason and a small tank is the only thing we can put fish in unless we can afford an enclosure in the sea and I don't know anyone except Poseidon with that.

So if you think medication and long quarantine is the way to go, and many people do. Then do that. There are many successful tanks that practice that system. But don't bash me for my beliefs as many people, and fish also feel my system works. :cool:

But if you want to do a quarantine/medication tank don't read a thread titled:

How to run your new tank without fallow and quarantine, post here for guidance live time, we track your tank out to eight months​

 
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salty joe

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I thought long and hard about QT and prophylactically treating my fish, I bought the drugs and the 20 gallon tanks to do so. Then, I thought long and hard about how many fish I might lose in QT. I also considered the possibility of introducing problems by feeding live food. I chose the natural method-so far so good.

I have an 800 gallon system that was set up five years ago with real live rock. I added my first batch of fish in March of this year and another in May. I have had losses both times right out of the gate. I saw no sign of disease, I think the fish could not handle the journey and acclimation. While I am thinking about how I can improve my acclimation, I do think some initial loss is inevitable the same way some fish arriving DOA is inevitable. Every fish that survived the first night has been fine.

I designed the tank so that if a fish wanted to hide long term, it could. Just yesterday, I saw my third pink stripe prawn goby that I thought was dead. They did not ship well-one was DOA and the other three could not right themselves. After acclimation, one could still not right itself. All three went in the tank.

I'm not necessarily advocating going this route but I do feel it is the right choice for me.
 

MnFish1

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Non quarantine non fallow advocates are responsible for this one too in my opinion, buckets of fish lost to this claim. Even today I click the fish disease forum, I see Jays method consulted and asked for in every final stage post, I see not a flipping aspect of this thread where work is due. I am legit mad at y’all and not fake mad like a cycling post where we argue about .25 ammonia for ten pages. If I posted any method that killed nano reefs at the rate these claims made in this thread kill fish, I’d be drummed out of nanodom as a saboteur.


I think you all are dealing in advice that has such low repeatability it’s 100% irresponsible to advocate it further, but I know you will not stop now as the momentum is too big to stop.


proponents against fallow and quarantine have absolutely no bar to attain before they tout the approach as best practices. Merely post their own pics for 170 pages and that’s all it takes, the fact these methods are reversed and undone in the fish disease forum as the treatment method speaks volumes.


people posting in this thread have an angle to support Paul and his approach. I dont think true losses will be reported here. I think it’ll be rosy roseness for the next eighty pages unless balances are linked.


The folks I link to you had no such goal they just wanted happy fish and are currently getting opposite of that by following any aspect of this thread. Miami reef weighed options carefully and selected what was written here vs what is written in the disease forum and I’m mad you’re killing his excellent fish with terrible low repeatability science.
Have you really done a calculation as to how many people that post in the disease forum used 'QT' (which is not usually defined by the people that use the term - QT can mean anything from observation to prophylactic treatments) vs. Non-QT (which is also not clearly defined - some people put their fish right in the tank, some in the refugium, etc)? The number of people posted on the disease forum (IMHO) does not mean one 'method' or another is better or worse.

The fact is - neither side makes much sense (to me). 1. There is no logical basis to assume that 'live clams or anything else' contain all the bacteria/parasites, etc to keep exposing fish to disease on an ongoing basis. There is no reason that I can see why 'live rock' would prevent fish diseases - unless the fish are eating more food (which I think is the common denominator). On the other hand, most people don't QT, and don't post on the fish disease forum. (Unless - like I asked above - you have statistics to show that people posting on the fish-disease forum never used QT - and/or the people that don't post on the fish disease forum have all used QT)
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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Miamis reef is a few months old, maybe 2 or 3

we can watch these early stages to see how it progresses. several large fish from different sources always turns out roughly in the disease forum and I think it’s important to watch the transition from seemingly ok to needing help in the disease forum if that occurs


if it doesn’t and the course of disease self manages then there won’t be losses reported in his tank by end of summer.

assessing a recurring theme in how many months it takes for new mixed fish systems to get a disease challenge helps new cyclers decide where they’re heading as soon as a tank is deemed ready to carry bioload


in my opinion the most important sample is from tanks not posting here that feel they will let down Paul if they admit to losses.
 
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