How to run your new tank without fallow and quarantine, post here for guidance live time, we track your tank out to eight months

[HuduVudu]

1. Your comments are not really inviting the discussion you wanted to have (sorry) or do you feel differently?
2. There are many areas in the ocean (barring storms) where one can dive year around. The exception does not prove the rule or?
3. Have you tested room Co2 with dissolved O2 concentrations I assume you have - that is the correlation?
4. His point (I believe) about oxygen was that in TANKS there is a large difference in O2 during the day - due to coral/algae respiration. (Assuming you dont have a refugium/algae reactor on at night).
5. You seem to be the one making blanket statements. Your friends 1400 ppm CO2 house may also be an exception.
6. it seems to me this is not designed to be a 'discussion' its designed as the other thread was - to prove that your ideas are the 'correct' ones.

Normally I would address your points. In this case I will not.

When someone comes that has never been to the ocean and wants to debate the ocean with the intent of pushing some narrative that they hold dear then I will dismiss them out of hand. I think my points pretty clearly show this. Your points show the very very outliers to try to be fair to the person that just wants a fight. I am not interested in that.

If you want to come to a discussion to debate the issues like you have done @MnFish1 then I am willing. In fact I enjoy the discussions that we have and no I don't agree with you on many things. Importantly though on many things I do. I am ok with that. Learning is what happens in those places. Most importantly mine.

I am tired of the cage fighting that comes from the need to prove a point so that you can lourd over another person your rightness. I am tired of people pushing agendas. I am not going to fight for the sake of fighting especially when the other party is so dishonest and not credible as to be obvious. I am really sick of it. I can ignore all of that, and move on with my life. My tank will still progress I will still learn and experiment.

I will give you an another example. I was on Facebook and I had one of my 20 plenums up. Some guy decided that what I did was a nitrate factory because he did not know what it was. I asked him several times if he knew what I had created. He did not. At first I tried to educate, but his tone was so aggressive and self righteous as to be cult like. It was creepy. The conversation ended with him suggesting that he would physically decide for me how my aquarium would work. I let him know that perhaps that would be a poor decision in TX. I actually saw him once in the LFS. He wasn't quite the big man there as he was online. I let it be because I don't need to visit or stay in the place where there are bars on your windows. That was three years ago. Because I am in the hobby here, I know that this person is no longer in the hobby. Why it seems like just yesterday that he rolled his giant cooler into the frag sale for the local club and spent a seemingly endless amount on frags. I am sick of dealing with these people, so I don't.

 

[HuduVudu]

self reporting validates a lot of the fallow and qt work, it seems useful there as feedback

also added to is that the top science folks for fish disease dissected it all in person, listed direct steps for others to try and feedback and ran it themselves, that's why qt and fallow carries the bulk of the correction work nowadays.

why can't we get non qt approaches to pan out that way, same feedback rates at least 80% happy at month 6 would be a significant change.

as of now we can reliably track dry rock starts to a 6-8 mo fish loss.

Brandon FYI my tank in my build thread is at 5 months.

 

[brandon429]

If we focus solely on tank entries like any other works by example thread its harmless and quite challenging. It works for so many claims verifications in reefing, it'll work for disease investigation we just need dedicated entrants willing to follow up.

I'll get posts eventually for cycling in pm and I'll ask them up front to post here for fish care, they will i bet. Then if at any time they want to try fallow/qt they can. But taking this method of including at least some live rock, low bioloading and for the really dedicated an oxidator is a safe start. I'm no fanboy of those devices, for algae I like rock and roll peroxide straight.


But this isn't algae and the goal is o2, an oxydator is directly designed to elevate dissolved o2 and i can't think of a better method other than dangerous medical gas lol being pumped strong through airstones. Both would achieve saturation. Oxydator totally safe.


Starting wh any plan is better than current rates of build

If we just hit this aim over and over by page twenty we will have a pattern ish

 

[Vette67]

5. You seem to be the one making blanket statements. Your friends 1400 ppm CO2 house may also be an exception.

I might know who had the 1400ppm CO2, and until I got an actual CO2 monitor, I may have believed your statement. I was surprised that me, my wife and kid could cause that in a living room by just watching a movie. Same room as my fish tank. I can’t believe that is an exception in a sealed house with 3 people in one room during a cold Ohio winter night

Now I will admit, this idea of depleted O2 being a clause for parasite infestation is new to me; so I need more time and information to process it before I will take sides. What I do know is that CO2 has a profound depressing effect on pH (I have personally seen as much as a .3 upward swing in pH by opening windows), so I’m inclined to give some credence to the idea. Try taking some actual measurements and see the results for yourself. You might be surprised at how high CO2 levels can get in your own house.

 

[Mark Gray]

I have been in the hobby since the 70s. I did take a 5 year break, and made a huge mistake lol. I went scuba diving in Thailand. That got me back in about 6 years ago. I do not quarantine, I also have introduced a fish with Ick into my display. Unfortunately I lost him when I was out of town and my power bar on my Apex went out only had 1 fish make it. But oddly enough 2 of my clams and a few peices of coral made it to. The ones that didn't i guess got to cold. I believe fish that are feed right can fight off parasites, the ocean is full of parasites. But fish do live much longer in an aquarium.

 

[MnFish1]

I might know who had the 1400ppm CO2, and until I got an actual CO2 monitor, I may have believed your statement. I was surprised that me, my wife and kid could cause that in a living room by just watching a movie. Same room as my fish tank. I can’t believe that is an exception in a sealed house with 3 people in one room during a cold Ohio winter night

Now I will admit, this idea of depleted O2 being a clause for parasite infestation is new to me; so I need more time and information to process it before I will take sides. What I do know is that CO2 has a profound depressing effect on pH (I have personally seen as much as a .3 upward swing in pH by opening windows), so I’m inclined to give some credence to the idea. Try taking some actual measurements and see the results for yourself. You might be surprised at how high CO2 levels can get in your own house.

There is no doubt that CO2 rises in households when it is closed during winter - or air conditioning during the summer and that it affects pH. One can easily see a swing in pH when the windows are closed as compared to open. My comment related to O2 levels. I just read an experiment - when they took office workers - in a closed room - duct taped the doors and measured O2 and CO2 levels. The O2 levels dropped by 0.3 percent. The Co2 levels tripled over the course of a day. They explain it this way:

"If humans breathe in oxygen and breathe out carbon dioxide, how can one remain almost unchanged while the other skyrockets? The key is that regular air has a lot more oxygen than carbon dioxide."

 

[MnFish1]

Normally I would address your points. In this case I will not.

When someone comes that has never been to the ocean and wants to debate the ocean with the intent of pushing some narrative that they hold dear then I will dismiss them out of hand. I think my points pretty clearly show this. Your points show the very very outliers to try to be fair to the person that just wants a fight. I am not interested in that.

If you want to come to a discussion to debate the issues like you have done @MnFish1 then I am willing. In fact I enjoy the discussions that we have and no I don't agree with you on many things. Importantly though on many things I do. I am ok with that. Learning is what happens in those places. Most importantly mine.

I am tired of the cage fighting that comes from the need to prove a point so that you can lourd over another person your rightness. I am tired of people pushing agendas. I am not going to fight for the sake of fighting especially when the other party is so dishonest and not credible as to be obvious. I am really sick of it. I can ignore all of that, and move on with my life. My tank will still progress I will still learn and experiment.

I will give you an another example. I was on Facebook and I had one of my 20 plenums up. Some guy decided that what I did was a nitrate factory because he did not know what it was. I asked him several times if he knew what I had created. He did not. At first I tried to educate, but his tone was so aggressive and self righteous as to be cult like. It was creepy. The conversation ended with him suggesting that he would physically decide for me how my aquarium would work. I let him know that perhaps that would be a poor decision in TX. I actually saw him once in the LFS. He wasn't quite the big man there as he was online. I let it be because I don't need to visit or stay in the place where there are bars on your windows. That was three years ago. Because I am in the hobby here, I know that this person is no longer in the hobby. Why it seems like just yesterday that he rolled his giant cooler into the frag sale for the local club and spent a seemingly endless amount on frags. I am sick of dealing with these people, so I don't.

I have been to the ocean many times. I believe that you have seen what you have seen. I have seen what I have seen. It was my impression that this thread was for people to report outcomes with QT and no QT. Somehow it has turned into a discussion about whether Oxygen levels affect parasites. Maybe we should try to get back to the original idea - and then once the 'data' is in - we can discuss oxygen. But - Co2 (or pH) is not a way to estimate dissolved O2 in a tank - or the level of 'gas exchange'. In fact - the fact that the pH drops when teh CO2 goes up in a tank quite quickly when doors and windows are closed - suggest excellent CO2 gas exchange Right? Thus there will also be excellent O2 exchange - and since O2 doesn't significantly change - it also suggests to me - that O2 levels in the tank won't change significantly. In fact - this process is so efficient - that I would suggest that your theory about adding fish will not significantly decrease O2 levels in a normal tank. I was trying to nicely suggest to you - that you are doing what you dislike others doing - you're lording your position on gas exchange over everyone so you can be 'right'.

 

[HuduVudu]

There is no doubt that CO2 rises in households when it is closed during winter - or air conditioning during the summer and that it affects pH. One can easily see a swing in pH when the windows are closed as compared to open. My comment related to O2 levels. I just read an experiment - when they took office workers - in a closed room - duct taped the doors and measured O2 and CO2 levels. The O2 levels dropped by 0.3 percent. The Co2 levels tripled over the course of a day. They explain it this way:

"If humans breathe in oxygen and breathe out carbon dioxide, how can one remain almost unchanged while the other skyrockets? The key is that regular air has a lot more oxygen than carbon dioxide."

Ok first off, Wikipedia is probably no better than your anecdotal evidence of the two office workers. However there is some chemistry here that might enlighten further. I just assumed, **** of you and me, that it was one to one. That you have challenged that made me have to do some work. I admit I was just going to concede the point but I a couple minutes of thought said do some basic research, so I did. It's funny I have a nose for finding stuff.

Here is the article:

Respiratory exchange ratio - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There is something called Respiratory Exchange Ratio (RER) This is used to determine which type of exercise you are currently performing, anaerobic or aerobic. The number that is used looks to me to be the ratio of oxygen input to carbon dioxide output.

Here are the relevant equations:

Oxidation of a carbohydrate molecule:
6 O2 + C6H12O6 -> 6 CO2 + 6 H2O + 38 ATP
RER = VCO2 / VO2 = 6 CO2 / 6 O2 = 1.0

Oxidation of a fatty acid molecule, namely palmitic acid:

23 O2 + C16H32O2 -> 16 CO2 + 16 H2O + 129 ATP
RER = VCO2 / VO2 = 16 CO2 / 23 O2 = 0.7

However air composition will essentially verify your example.

The Chemical Composition of Air

Here's information about the chemical composition of the Earth's air and the percentages of the most common compounds according to volume.

www.thoughtco.com

Air composition of O2 and CO2

O2 20.94%
CO2 00.31%

This forces me to concede the O2 point.

I still however feel that home gas levels to play an important role in aquarium health, so I went further down the rabbit hole, under the knowledge that 1400ppm of CO2 will cause cognitive decline in humans. Perhaps the problem isn't lack of O2 but abundance of CO2, and maybe the impact is greater then just PH. I found this article. Once again not scientific, but I am sure if I had access and dug some I could find articles because this seems to be base knowledge.

Symptoms of Carbon Dioxide Intoxication and Poisoning​

• Deeper breathing
• Twitching of muscles
• Increased blood pressure
• Headache
• Increased pulse rate
• Loss of judgment
• Labored breathing
• Unconsciousness (occurs in under a minute when CO2 concentration rises about 10%)
• Death

So this is my response.

 

[Pntbll687]

I have a couple questions

1) how would we be able to test this theory? I'm thinking you would have to have a fish you know for a fact is carrying ich, but not showing any outward cysts. Then move that fish to a tank by itself and isolate said fish. Wait a couple weeks?/days? Then start to slowly lower the dissolved oxygen in the water and monitor to see if the ich cysts develop.

2) would this need to be repeated with multiple fish across multiple species?

3) how many other factors can we account for?


The theory is interesting, but I think we need more than anecdotal evidence from "newer" hobbyist.

I myself have never quarantined a fish, and had ich show up a few times, and go away with no loses. Without knowing the dissolved oxygen levels I wouldn't be able to say a drop in oxygen caused the outbreak any more than I pointing to a host of other factors.

 

[HuduVudu]

Somehow it has turned into a discussion about whether Oxygen levels affect parasites.

I think you are missing the point. This is a discussion over whether QT is helpful to fish or not. I have posited that it is not and I have described what I believe is necessary to ensure good conditions for fish to not have to go through a QT process, or more relevantly stay disease free.

Maybe we should try to get back to the original idea - and then once the 'data' is in - we can discuss oxygen

For me gas exchange IS the original idea. Knowing what I know now I wouldn't even have fish if I couldn't provide proper gas exchange. Medicating fish without proper gas exchange is pointless, and that has been my contention from the very beginning.

But - Co2 (or pH) is not a way to estimate dissolved O2 in a tank - or the level of 'gas exchange'.

Correct and conceded. Interestingly as to what I found CO2 is waaaay more of a problem. Right thinking wrong reasons, the story of my life.

he fact that the pH drops when teh CO2 goes up in a tank quite quickly when doors and windows are closed - suggest excellent CO2 gas exchange Right?

I am very aware of this. You can see my build thread for hard evidence. The real world though had me opening and airing the house twice a day and even with that I was seeing peek levels at 1200ppm. Left for just one day and a half I was seeing levels near 2200ppm.

Ask yourself if it is really hot or cold outside how willing you are to open and clear your house twice a day? This is what lead me and my friend to the ERV solution.

hus there will also be excellent O2 exchange - and since O2 doesn't significantly change - it also suggests to me - that O2 levels in the tank won't change significantly.

Conceded.

that I would suggest that your theory about adding fish will not significantly decrease O2 levels in a normal tank

Conceded. The caveat is that it WILL raise CO2 levels, and now I believe that is a real problem.

that you are doing what you dislike others doing - you're lording your position on gas exchange over everyone so you can be 'right'.

Ok. I get it you have never been in serious conflict jobs. Some people aren't interested in a calm rational debate to learn. They just want to fight. I am very quick to spot these people that only interested in fighting. I can see them a mile away.

When I bounced for the bar I worked my wife would often interfere in what I was doing. It really really caused me grief. I was trying to remove people that were problems, and when she undo what I had done then the problem would get really bad and it made me have to work that much harder to deal with it.

I don't want to deal with people like this because they are 1) not honest and 2) not there to learn. I am surprised you made this statement especially in light of other conversations we have had in other threads. I am not here to be right I am here to learn. Someone that comes with the intent to destroy for the sake of destruction has no desire to learn. Words are weapons that they use. I just am not interested in that or them.

 

[ChrisOFL]

My whole goal behind gas exchange is from my idea that if CO2 is elevated in the aquarium, the fish gills can not expel CO2 as easily into the water. Since water is in equilibrium with the atmosphere and can only hold so much dissolved gas based on our atmospheric pressure, lower CO2 in the water would allow fish to expel CO2 easier. l'm not sure if you could even study this to determine if it's true or not but it's how I've always thought about it.

 

[MnFish1]

Ok first off, Wikipedia is probably no better than your anecdotal evidence of the two office workers. However there is some chemistry here that might enlighten further. I just assumed, **** of you and me, that it was one to one. That you have challenged that made me have to do some work. I admit I was just going to concede the point but I a couple minutes of thought said do some basic research, so I did. It's funny I have a nose for finding stuff.

Here is the article:

Respiratory exchange ratio - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There is something called Respiratory Exchange Ratio (RER) This is used to determine which type of exercise you are currently performing, anaerobic or aerobic. The number that is used looks to me to be the ratio of oxygen input to carbon dioxide output.

Here are the relevant equations:


However air composition will essentially verify your example.

The Chemical Composition of Air

Here's information about the chemical composition of the Earth's air and the percentages of the most common compounds according to volume.

www.thoughtco.com

Air composition of O2 and CO2


This forces me to concede the O2 point.

I still however feel that home gas levels to play an important role in aquarium health, so I went further down the rabbit hole, under the knowledge that 1400ppm of CO2 will cause cognitive decline in humans. Perhaps the problem isn't lack of O2 but abundance of CO2, and maybe the impact is greater then just PH. I found this article. Once again not scientific, but I am sure if I had access and dug some I could find articles because this seems to be base knowledge.



So this is my response.

good you concede there is no relation between o2 and co2

 

[HuduVudu]

good you concede there is no relation between o2 and co2

This is utterly condescending. Your next post will determine whether I ever speak to you again. I saw how you dealt with Paul B. and I am really getting to the point that I think you just want to talk down to the rubes. I'm not having it.

Your move chief.

 

[brandon429]

I want work examples here lol we are doing theories only so far

ya’ll need to be hitting up posters in the disease forum and driving them here for remediation. People aren’t going to join up without some sales work because the claims here are not outweighing the results earned from following today’s best procedures in the fish disease forum. The outlier claims have all the solicitation work to do, that’s a familiar notion for me at least. Used to that gradient

we r at page four and no direct startup/ tracking works on file

 

[HuduVudu]

I want work examples here lol we are doing theories only so far

ya’ll need to be hitting up posters in the disease forum and driving them here for remediation. People aren’t going to join up without some sales work because the claims here are not outweighing the results earned from following today’s best procedures in the fish disease forum. The outlier claims have all the solicitation work to do, that’s a familiar notion for me at least. Used to that gradient

we r at page four and no direct startup/ tracking works on file

I generally agree with you trying to bring the non QT method. I would love that people to have more success, but it always devolves into the theoretical, because people are afraid. Here are two quotes that came one after another and why I tire of trying to "sell" the non-QT.

Note: These are from a different thread.

I don't care how long your system has been up, what you feed, etc. If velvet gets introduced into the display it's a death sentence for all the fish unless theyre treated with copper. Many other infections, parasites, etc can be fought off with a healthy immune system, even ich, but not velvet. It is simply a matter of luck to not encounter it without qt and it's a chance I will never take again.

I would like to try this method, bit I don’t want to chance killing off all of my fish

Fear drives people. It makes them do things they otherwise wouldn't rationally do. If you are not COMPLETELY confident in what you are doing you are going to change course at the last minute the very moment that it is most critical time to not change course. I do not want to interact with panicked people. I do not want to try to show anything to a person that has a training scar. It is painful for me and they are not going to do anything different because they are afraid.

I am not a salesperson. My skin is not that thick. I did telemarketing for a day. That was enough for me.

My tanks work, if someone wants to follow what I am doing then fine. The same for any person. Paul has a good method. There are others that I believe have solid methods too. They are here on these boards and can be found if you take the time to look.

I will re-iterate again many many people are not here to be actually successful they are here to make others envious.

 

[MnFish1]

This is utterly condescending. Your next post will determine whether I ever speak to you again. I saw how you dealt with Paul B. and I am really getting to the point that I think you just want to talk down to the rubes. I'm not having it.

Your move chief.

My comment was not designed at all to be condescending. Perhaps it seemed too blunt a statement (its often difficult to totally understand meaning with written text as compared to 'in person').

So let me try to put it a different way, It is my opinion based on science and articles I've read that CO2 measurements should not be considered as proxy or approximation for O2 measurements in water as they do not correlate. I provided a quote from an article that explained 'why' this is the case. In fact I consider that a 'fact'. It's my opinion - that adding fish to a tank will not lower dissolved oxygen enough to cause a problem with stress/parasites.

I will categorically state, I'm not talking down to anyone, you, Paul anyone else (or attempting to). I have complemented Pauls tank on numerous occasions, I hope you get where I'm coming from here.

EDIT - I just re-read the thread. I did NOT see all of the places where you discussed the research you did - I only scrolled down part of the page. So - I apologize - I can definitely see where you could consider that response condescending. Again - I apologize.

 

[40g Nano]

Well this took a turn

Paul B is sharing his experience and showing how he did it. He was very successful in think imo.

Edit: not Paul B
Wrong thread I’m thinking of

what works for one person may not necessarily work for another.

Edit but it can

I may not be going down this route since I have already qt my fish, but that is my course of action. Do whatever you want. It is your tank, not mine, not anyone’s but yours.

 

[HuduVudu]

Well this took a turn

Paul B is sharing his experience and showing how he did it. He was very successful in think imo.

Edit: not Paul B
Wrong thread I’m thinking of

what works for one person may not necessarily work for another.

Edit but it can

I may not be going down this route since I have already qt my fish, but that is my course of action. Do whatever you want. It is your tank, not mine, not anyone’s but yours.

Sorry Nano, I cross posted this, you got pulled into this thread. POW here you are.

 

[brandon429]

Team

this is four pages and just like Paul’s thread, no work done. All theory. I cant support this notion, the experiment is closed for me. if this was a tank relocation thread we’d have fifteen works logged and done by page four. We could at least have 2 or 3 new tanks prepping for this method, but nobody wants to because it goes against what we know works best and does have work examples.

not one example was farmed here


esoteric, and not repeatable and every day in the fish disease forum real copyable work is being done to save fish.

Im not being mean I’m saying nobody wanted to try any of this and nobody was sold into doing opposite of what Jay recommends. Pauls tank will continue to be a unicorn in the hobby.

 

[Paul B]

Hello there Hudu. Sorry, I didn't even know this thread existed.

Contrary to popular opinion I don't spend all my waking hours on here searching out interesting threads. Much of my time, but not all of it. I normally just check if there is anything new on one of my threads then go outside and count cicada's in the dirt.

I did just read quite a few of the threads and it seems we are looking to start a new tank with dry rock. My advice would be to get another hobby.

Sorry. I started my tank with dead rock that I collected live in the sea in the tropics, and bleached in my hotel room to carry it home on my lap. I had many problems at first. Dry rock with nothing added from the sea is most often a disaster weather you quarantine, don't quarantine or offer up tea leaves to the moon.

If you want to do this and have some sort of success try to get at least some live rock. The more you get, the more successful you will be. I realize live rock is expensive but it is more important than controllers, dosers, oxidators, ozonizers or fish.
I don't know what boxed salt costs but you won't have to change the water very often so buy rock instead.

It is probably the most important thing you can do. Bacteria in a bottle won't do it so leave that in the store and buy live rock.

One important aspect of having a healthy and hopefully immune tank is the have the fish feel secure and they won't in a tank with new, white, dead rock. They will get sick, Sorry, but it is what it is.

I even say it in the beginning of my book (that Noobs should not read) That new tanks with all new, white dead rocks will be a disaster.

If I were to start a new tank with new rock, which I would not do, I would set it up and add a lot of hermit crabs, shrimp, arrow crabs etc. Creatures that don't care much about the surroundings but they will poop. They are also very interesting and usually cheap.
They will be your best friend for a year or two to stabilize the tank and add some needed bacteria.

You will however have to add "something" from the sea besides those to seed the bacteria and much needed pods.

Feed this tank heavily a little to much. Yes the parameters will suffer. Don't worry about it the crabs won't care. You are trying to build up a bionome (I can't spell that so work with me)
You are trying to get some growth on the rocks weather it be hair algae, cyano or Godzilla Larvae but you need growth. You can change the water later, don't worry about it.

Eventually you will have pods all over the place and a little algae growth on the rocks. It may take two years, in the meantime collect stamps, play golf, pop pimples, do something but don't start adding Achilles tangs or they will get ich and die, guaranteed. Then you will blame me and say that Paul B doesn't know a pod from a cockroach. ;Bucktooth

You can't start a successful, immune, healthy tank by using dry everything and put in a bunch of fish and corals in a week. It ain't gonna happen no matter how much oxygen, bottled bacteria, test kits, medications or Fairy God Mothers you have.

This takes time. After you have those shrimp and crabs in there for a while (Ok you can add a couple of cheap fish but if they get sick, don't medicate them)

Then you can add some fish, not a moorish Idle. Maybe some wrasses, gobies etc.
If you see some spots, close your eyes and you won't see them. Fish need to get infected to become immune.

I will try to finish this later. I have wife stuff to do.