How to tell if a clam is carrying pinched mantle?

iandb

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Hello Everyone,

I am wondering if there is a way to tell if a clam is carrying pinched mantle disease? The reason why I ask this is because I currently have two clams (each one in a different tank), and would like to move them together in the same tank sometime in the future (not for another few months though). One clam is a Derasa that I got about 8 months ago, and the other is an ultra Maxima that I got 8 days ago, which I am watching closely. However my concern is that my Derasa may be carrying pinched mantle disease (I don't know if this is even possible)? The reason why I am concerned about this is that when I bought the Derasa, I also bought a small maxima (both from ORA thru liveaquaria), and during the first month, the maxima died, from what appeared to be pinched mantle (the mantle starting to slowly retract more and more after the second week, and the mantle looked kind of pinched...the maxima died one week after that) although I still am not sure. I also remember reading somewhere that Derasa are somewhat resistant to pinched mantle, at least more so than other species (I don't know if this is completely accurate). Anyways, the Derasa never had the same symptoms as that Maxima, and has grown beautifully in the past 8 months, but I was looking at it today, and since I know that I would like to eventually move my two clams together in the same tank sometime in the future, I noticed something that I hadn't noticed before:

1569806255174.png


The mantle looks slightly ruffled (keep in mind though that this clam is healthy and growing, and maybe I am just being exaggerated about the mantle being ruffled lol), and this got me thinking about whether it is possible for a clam to carry pinched mantle disease? I do not want to move the clams together if it means that I could potentially infect my other clam, but at the same time am wondering whether or not you guys think this clam might be carrying pinched mantle, and if so is there a way to treat and possibly eliminate the disease?

Thank you 1569806257158.png
 

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Not pm. Looks like sponges may be bothering it.
 

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@iandb I would continue to monitor the clam. Any tridacna can carry pinched mantle. You will notice the mantle getting worse in a short amount of time and at that point I would look into freshwater dipping. You can also try cleaning the shell with a soft toothbrush as well.
 
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iandb

iandb

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@iandb I would continue to monitor the clam. Any tridacna can carry pinched mantle. You will notice the mantle getting worse in a short amount of time and at that point I would look into freshwater dipping. You can also try cleaning the shell with a soft toothbrush as well.
Oh I am not worried about this clam at all, as the more I think about it the more I realize that the mantle has always looked like this, and it is still growing (literally new shell daily), rather, I am more worried about this clam transferring disease to another, and whether or not there is a way I could have both clams in the same tank without this happening...I hope this makes sense
 
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iandb

iandb

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If pinched mantle is indeed present then it will infect other clams in the tank.
Then I guess it would be wise to keep my two clams in separate tanks the way they are now
 

OrionN

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I would for the time being until your sure there is no pinched mantle. Usually the onset will incline rapidly.
There are different causes for pinched mantle in clams, some even kill clams. However, PMD, one of these disease as originally described onset slowly and can be easily cure with FWD. This disease does not have asymptomatic carrier. All infected clams will show the disease. It will be fatal untreated.
 
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iandb

iandb

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There are different causes for pinched mantle in clams, some even kill clams. However, PMD, one of these disease as originally described onset slowly and can be easily cure with FWD. This disease does not have asymptomatic carrier. All infected clams will show the disease. It will be fatal untreated.
Since the clam in question (pictured above) has been in this state for the past 8 months and is growing quickly, is it safe to assume the clam does not have pinched mantle?
 

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Isn't pinched mantle a type of protozoan? All the pinched mantle I've encountered with tridacna seemed to increase rapidly once noticed in the mantle and if not intervened quickly the clam died. My point was to not put that clam in a tank with others if pinched mantle is suspected as that can spread quickly through each clam.
 

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Since the clam in question (pictured above) has been in this state for the past 8 months and is growing quickly, is it safe to assume the clam does not have pinched mantle?
Correct. Pinched Mantle Disease cause the mantle to retracted, not ruffle. Here are several picture that show classic retraction of mantle due to PMD

The Blue Max easier to see than the B&W Max
2001maxima1-jpg.1234441


Derassa with PMD
2019derasapretreatment2-jpg.1234446


Same Derasa about 6 weeks post treatment with FWD
2019derasaposttreatment2-jpg.1234444
 

OrionN

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Isn't pinched mantle a type of protozoan? All the pinched mantle I've encountered with tridacna seemed to increase rapidly once noticed in the mantle and if not intervened quickly the clam died. My point was to not put that clam in a tank with others if pinched mantle is suspected as that can spread quickly through each clam.
The pathogen for PMD have not been ID.

Here is a quote I wrote regarding ID of the Pathogen responsible for PMD.

........
"
I read the article “The Pinched Mantle Syndrome in Giant Clams” by Dr. David Basti, Deborah Bouchard and Barry Neigut in Conscientious Aquarist Magazine which has the following abstract:

Pinched Mantle Syndrome is a term used by marine reef hobbyists to describe a disease condition in the ornamental clam Tridacna crocea and Tridacna maxima. The disease causes localized mantle retraction, gaping, loss of coloration and, eventually, mortality. A Perkinsus olseni-like protozoan has been identified as a possible cause of the disease. Based on this preliminary work, histopathology is the preferred method to confirm the presence of the parasite within the tissue of Tridacna crocea.”

I just wanted to say that this does not describe the same disease. The authors were looking for pathogen within the tissue of the clams, disease within the tissue will never response to a fresh water dip. Because of this reason, it is likely that the parasite within the tissue of some of the clams by these authors, while can cause clam illness, was not true pathogen for PMD as described above, and effectively treated with FWD......
 

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I could've sworn I read articles and one by Fatheree that identified a type of protozoan? Any way, just sharing my experiences to help members. Happy reefing.
 

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I could've sworn I read articles and one by Fatheree that identified a type of protozoan? Any way, just sharing my experiences to help members. Happy reefing.
I read that too. However Fatheree, I believed, use the article above by Dr. Basti et. al. as the source that PMD is possibly cause by protozoa.

I also think that PMD is cause by unicellular parasite, but I think, back by the fact that PMD response to FWD, that these parasites infected clams on the surface, not internal. I think that Dr. Basti and his group looking for the pathogen at the wrong site. Because of this reason, they did not ID the same protozoa on all of their sick clams but only on some of them. This was not mention in the abstract but in the body of the article (the fact that only some of the sick clams have this protozoa isolated from them) BTW, they also isolate this protozoa from some of the healthy clams.
With their result I would conclude that this protozoa is an incidental finding, especially given the fact that the disease responded to FWD.
They recognized that internally infected pathogen will never be cure by FWD but suggested to use FWD as a treatment.
It is very likely that the sick clams they used were not all infected with PMD. Rather they examined a heterogeneous group of sick clams and the data generated cannot be analyzed logically and come to a clear conclusion.

It seem that they tried to shoehorned the conclusion from preconceived notions. Their ID of the pathogen in not come from science. Certainly they did not perform the Koch's postulates, which should be very easy to do given how infectious this disease is.

Koch's postulates are as follows:

  • The bacteria must be present in every case of the disease.
  • The bacteria must be isolated from the host with the disease and grown in pure culture.
  • The specific disease must be reproduced when a pure culture of the bacteria is inoculated into a healthy susceptible host.
  • The bacteria must be recoverable from the experimentally infected host.
Here is a link to Dr. Basti's article:

BTW, I just want to discuss and hopefully we all learn something. Peace to you.
 
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hart24601

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It's been interesting to see FWD and PM posts come back now. In the past decade and maybe 60 clams or more during that time I have never had a single specimen that responded well to FW dip but every all online reference I would find pretty much suggested FWD as cure all's. I have had some healthy clams that get ruffled for a few days then are fine too, so I'm glad the discussion is opening to a broader look at various organisms and diseases as for my perspective over dozens and dozens of clams have been that fresh water dips do nothing despite it being in almost every "clam not looking good" thread.
 
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