Human safety issues aren't rare-discuss classroom reefs, home reef-caused infections in humans. this is an untold side of home reef tanking

brandon429

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we take for granted the inside-angle knowledge of palytoxin, Vibrio infections, mycobacterium infections, unknown potential viral transfers and basic allergic inflammation reactions from being around reef tanks. That's what seasoned forum typers come to learn over the years


But I now see a standout risk where even experienced reef keepers may not know about the potential danger in vermitid pokes, or even handling of substrates where microtears or scrapes still cause a marked inflammation response, not just an annoyance


This information is NOT part of the initial reads in classroom reef setups. Student interactions in the reef tanks are limited and controlled by the teacher I'm aware, but not to the degree I see bacterial/inflammation/respiratory transfer issues mentioned in classroom builds over the years.

I have recently (four days ago issue still pending no updates) in online in live chats watched a reef tanker develop such a pronounced arm and leg infection from cleaning out a reef tank that for them not to have provided updates in our thread in four days is deeply seriously concerning and the reason for this thread.

I'm stating the person's reaction was so bad, its not a non-issue in reefing its a dedicated study we need especially for classroom setting reefs. I'm sure the biology teachers are in control of the settings, they're not being haphazard, so this is merely a discussion on the inherent but often unspoken risks in our hobby.

nobody who owns fanged and venom-able herps needs retraining on their elective risks, but reef tankers do. My child grew up around reefs but we at least used gloves. I did not consider breathing issues a risk, I drew the line at direct physical handling so we at least used gloves. Past that I was open to risks associated in the system we mainly looked at it; not a lot of deep inhaling off the top water and thankfully that worked out ok for my family.

If anyone has friends that don't know about nuances of reef tank safety: beyond palytoxin which was all the headlines in the last four years, let them know about simple handling of live rock can transmit very dangerous infections. its not rare, I have one friend on this site who has already posted three times about having to go into the dr for minor rock pokes and boil development, they're apparently more sensitive than normal.


*There are still palythoid owners posting who do not know about palytoxin risk


others report zero reaction to anything, including paly handling, that's kind of the go-to starting point we all start with till given a reason not to. Well I'm here to relay its something to watch out for, off the bat, linked with cycle training

among the things we teach new aquarists past ammonia control: fish disease preps and now human disease preps.

when people post pics of what their arm infections look like, it'll sink in. go search some recent ones out

 
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brandon429

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Who's responsibility is this information transfer initially? The pet store if they sold live rock to the customer?

once the customer takes dry rock into live rock by mixing species and giving it time to stew in water, that has to be on the customer's end to study the ins and outs... kind of like a school course self-directed


we're here to post that there is a safety risk that must be studied, that's not part of any reef training I've ever seen. its all nitrite fear I've seen :)


we all currently operate there's an unspoken responsibility on the part of the owner to know about risks involved in their biology hobby, well some don't know and there's a high price to pay for 1/1000 it seems.

It needs to be part of cycling discussions. disease model discussions for humans and fish are requisitely tied into cycling, my own threads are being updated with this one as a disease discussion link so add what you will please /

**specifically: even if you follow strong disease risk mitigation you can have allergic reaction to any water transfers or cellular transfers off the rock if reading about allergen transfer has any application in what we do. the risk is clearly low, or we'd have posts like this every week vs once a year but for the people it happens to: % risks don't help much now.


prep early, there's a safety component nobody in the supply chain told you about.
 
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shakacuz

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as much as we try to educate those to have proper husbandry, i believe we could also definitely start implementing good hygiene care/prevention (safety) as well. this was a good read, and i most certainly will look for ways to improve my handling and prevention as i do not want to expose myself or others to potential reef keeping risks!
 
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brandon429

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This also adds a new dimension of concern and responsibility in classroom reefs. That's a mix of kids and a mix of inflammation receptivity differences

Based on the rate of "I got salmonella from my turtle posts" (I've seen zero in 20 years online including as a turtle owner) compared to posted pics of swollen reef tank contact limbs I must therefore be shocked by the fact a reef tank in the classroom is the strongest vector likelihood for issues vs any organism set kept in that classroom. it elevates to top concern unless a 12 foot python is present.


so next level of classroom safety is what? discussion with parents at minimum before having helpers.

yes, I'd sign my kiddo up first go its the first venture into medical procedure which is a good overall skill, and when handled while learning aseptic technique by reef tank managers, I'd have my kid volunteer first pass.

But I would not advise setting one up, not having the discussion with parents, and electing helpers like it was back in the 90's. something has changed since then, so be on the leading edge of that change for your own good. we have to discuss it to know about it.


*because all reef training material pretty much omits the physical safety acknowledgement inherent to the hobby, I'd say we give credence to the matter about .5% in any sampled group. most just buy the available items, and reef on, the discussion is not part of reef training by posts or macna podium talks recently I've seen, and it should be.

get slides to show the crowd of potential mycobacterium marinum infections they'll perk up and pay attention.



 
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brandon429

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Here’s one, an inflammation response

not sure if these will stay rare or become more common, we collect patterns to make predictions

 

N.Sreefer

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That case looks like aquagenic induced urticaria IMO, it would be interesting to see what an allergy panel would find. Allergies to salt water are rare but not non existent. I am a little confused why people are so afraid of pathogens in seawater your back yard's soil is just as likely to yield a high pathogen load if you tested it the way we do our water. But I know few people that act as cautiously gardening as many do reefing.
 

Karen00

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This is a very interesting discussion starter @brandon429

I would be curious to know if there are protocols in schools regarding saltwater tanks. After all there are restrictions on things like peanut butter, etc but are possible sensitivities/reactions to saltwater and their inhabitants taken into account?

I myself go into my tank without gloves but I only got started six months ago and with dry rock so at the moment I don't have to contend with inhabitants that might cause issues. Having said that my left arm (which is the one that goes into the tank) periodically flares up red. Now is this from the salt mix or something else I don't know but at the very minimum I sometimes have a reaction. I also sometimes wonder if this reaction could turn into something more.
 
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brandon429

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Team thank you both for posting

NS
that was a great call - had to Google urticaria and it really makes sense

I see there can be lots of causes in nature for that and I'd have lost all bets that saltwater alone would cause it

Karen what struck me about post #5 was how the irritants can change over time, despite our habitation and this recent rash he traced back to mere saltwater contact with no other biologics we could find

The main takeaway is that in the classroom handling a turtle and getting salmonella is so rare I've never had it happen to me in a lifetime of turtling lol


I would rate marine system owning irritation or inflammation or actual bacterial infection source risk is vastly more common than turtle handling and salmo just my guess

Have been watching post patterns a while and have seen 4 or 5 swelling events that looked like second degree burns from simple live rock handling/ vermitid pokes and now this above/ saltwater only irritation after decades of delayed onset

Have been in discussions on three occasions that required a hospital visit for the reefer and also one reefer here went three separate times for marine events.

Marine tanks in the classroom now are best suited alongside the topic and discussion and practice of aseptic handling technique... what runs all hospitals etc.


You get to enjoy it but the marine tank will be the greatest source of transmissible insults of anything else in the biology exhibit.

I don't know what's the right way to manage it in the classroom but am curious what others think

Is there a minimum age group of kiddos where the rock of keeping a marine system around them isn't worth the risk? Meaning an open topped common reef sitting on a desk setup.... aerosols etc. Not some fancy in wall setup where they only have a pane of glass to smear things on lol

In a walled off setup like that the aerosol exchange and the risk of contamination is bigtime reduced. Perhaps those nuances matter


stings by fish spines in the reef tank
 
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TnFishwater98

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This is a very interesting discussion starter @brandon429

I would be curious to know if there are protocols in schools regarding saltwater tanks. After all there are restrictions on things like peanut butter, etc but are possible sensitivities/reactions to saltwater and their inhabitants taken into account?

I myself go into my tank without gloves but I only got started six months ago and with dry rock so at the moment I don't have to contend with inhabitants that might cause issues. Having said that my left arm (which is the one that goes into the tank) periodically flares up red. Now is this from the salt mix or something else I don't know but at the very minimum I sometimes have a reaction. I also sometimes wonder if this reaction could turn into something more.
Some people can be more allergic to stuff than others. My daughter gets rashes when she goes into the ocean. She doesn’t like going in the ocean because of the irritation it causes. I agree we all should be more careful putting our arms into our tanks especially if we have a cut.
 

Karen00

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Some people can be more allergic to stuff than others. My daughter gets rashes when she goes into the ocean. She doesn’t like going in the ocean because of the irritation it causes. I agree we all should be more careful putting our arms into our tanks especially if we have a cut.
Exactly. That's why I was wondering if there are protocols in place for kids with sensitivities. I wouldn't have even thought of this. We never had saltwater tanks when I was in school and if I remember correctly the only tank I ever saw was freshwater in the biology lab in high school. :)
 

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With food allergies theres alot of evidence to suggest early introduction of allergenic foods can reduce the severity of the reaction and even reduce the risk of developing an allergy. My thinking is, early introduction to potential allergens in saltwater could lower the risk of developing reactions to saltwater later in life. Just a theory/opinion.
 
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brandon429

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We're discovering there's a stepped up line though, for schools depending on how the tank is handled or not in class by helpers. For instance i don't think it's prudent for small children to handle marine stuff without a basic waiver about the rare possibility of inflammation given to the parents. Many would choose a no handling, only watch option I'll bet if informed




******this man did not listen for so long in the infection thread, that I thought he died and I'm not joking. I dislike this thread 265 reef so much I unlink it sometimes*******

But it belongs in our consequence study:
 
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Lyss

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Oh, yikes. Well, I started religiously using gloves a few months ago, as much for the fish protection as for my own — including a pair that goes up to my elbows — so I don’t worry for myself much anymore. But in terms of responsibility, I think it’s very helpful and thoughtful for anyone w/any authority along the way as someone is setting up a tank to mention this stuff, but I think the ultimate responsibility lies w/the owner. We know there’s bacteria in tanks b/c we cycle them, and some of us even put bacteria in, so I’m not sure where the disconnect is, but folks should know this is a possibility. I feel like most who run into issues do know but just take the risk vs. having no idea it can happen, but who knows. Ex: it’s hard to maneuver my fingers in gloves and sometimes when I’m gluing frags I think about taking them off.
 

TnFishwater98

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8194625E-5391-4078-94A6-2552439B5271.jpeg

Well after 3 years my female Clown Fish decided to bit me when reaching in the tank.
 

NoahLikesFish

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i probably have gotten palytoxin poisining but im exposed it to it so im like the guy from the princess bride that drank the locane powder and didnt die
 
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