Human safety issues aren't rare-discuss classroom reefs, home reef-caused infections in humans. this is an untold side of home reef tanking

[MnFish1]

Please stay out of my classroom with your demands for even more regulation!

Actually - he is right - as a microbiologist - Most people misuse antibiotics - whether for fish or demanding an MD give their child an antibiotic for a viral infection. Now - thats not implying some nefarious intent - parents want to get their kids better ASAP - As do teachers. However - looking at statistics Most infections - in a classroom/community - are viral. No offense

 

[brandon429]

Let's pick back up here the saga between reefers who will do anything to shortcut a path to happy anemones contrasted by a few medical doctors in the thread who are reefers saying in bold letters to stop using up our supplies of cipro for your tinkering hobby

Please STOP CIPROFLOXACIN DIPS and other antibiotics

Well said. In addition, there’s new research to demonstrate that antidepressants actually contribute more to new antibiotic resistant bacterial strains than does the utilization of antibiotics themselves. So, exercise, herbs, and therapy also Can you send the sources of this info, please?

www.reef2reef.com

I did not know that thread existed when I made my cipro post, it was refreshing to find a set of reefers who didn't have a flippant attitude on the matter/ doesn't use online pill mills like pez candy dispensers

 

[TnFishwater98]

Tamberav you always have such a great way of communicating reefing modes. I enjoy your posts here and on nr.com and on hf's site. good job for the hobby's benefit across the board.

I just like to predict trending in reefing, it's fun. I think this angle on bacteria modulation will matter one day

I've been deep reading on it for two hours now- it's like this as a breakdown:

anything medical, anything studied as epidemiology from multiple colleges and theses, is full stop to what we're doing, with constant mention of potential harm and consequence to cipro specifically / antibiotics in general when used loosely


aquarists are using it very very very loosely with guesstimate doses, sustain times / across the board it's loose


the aquarium version on cipro use in the tank is: ten thousand people en masse absolutely going full throttle on it lol/unfettered access/ and not one single paper or study in their favor for the safety aspect.

attempts to keep anemones happy without broad-spectrum antibiotics fall to the wayside, this mode here is becoming the default guess way people deal with infections on corals and perceived infections in anemones.

not one aquarium use formal study exists that I've seen advising mass application, among ten thousand readable studies warning against cipro flippant use without matching targets and without specific sustained courses to kill/truly squelch the targets vs feed them evolutionary fuel.


So we are doing something on a wide scale in the hobby that has no papers published? amazing.

there's an stark distinction between studies able to be found on no holds barred cipro dosing in aquaria, and anything regarding human medical practice so to me that belongs as a valid review where we're blending medical impacts and reefing.


I didn't think it should go unmentioned... or continued at the current rate we're continuing it just because eighty online vendors are willing to grab that cash from the bulk clickers.

cipro is too widely used by us to be just given up lightly, its a cheat fallback to good husbandry that can't last forever in effectiveness, per the studies I am directly seeing that we can all search too.

until we see some studies saying: go ahead, dole it out to fifty thousand home aquarists for application and re application ad libitum, I'm holding firm this is a bad trend we're doing.

Forum bros are never going to listen in the matter, they'll always be experts that other people should follow in their own minds no matter what the greater scientific community is saying

'Silent pandemic' warning from WHO: Bacteria killing too many people due to antimicrobial resistance

There aren't enough new antibiotics in the pipeline, the World Health Organization (WHO) is warning, to deal with deadly pathogens; "antibiotic resistance" is a big concern in medicine today.

www.foxnews.com

You trust the WHO? They have been wrong /lied multiple times. I dont trust anything they say because they have shown me they don’t care about me or my family…. They have lost All credibility…..

 

[MnFish1]

You trust the WHO? They have been wrong /lied multiple times. I dont trust anything they say because they have shown me they don’t care about me or my family…. They have lost All credibility…..

There are thousands of papers on drug-resistant bacteria. MRSA - is just plain staphylococcus aureus that is resistant to methicillin. VRE is just enterococcus thats resistant to vancomycin. There are strains of bacteria - seen more often in third-world countries - that are resistant to ALL except experimental antibiotics. So forget the WHO.

Here is a nice article from 2015: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4378521/

 

[TnFishwater98]

There are thousands of papers on drug-resistant bacteria. MRSA - is just plain staphylococcus aureus that is resistant to methicillin. VRE is just enterococcus thats resistant to vancomycin. There are strains of bacteria - seen more often in third-world countries - that are resistant to ALL except experimental antibiotics. So forget the WHO.

Here is a nice article from 2015: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4378521/

I already have…. WHO are you talking about…?

 

[brandon429]

I saw we buy five pallets of cipro/because we can. thats in line with the current attitudes at least: because we can=do.

then, once we have 54 kilos of the substance I say we dole it out for sniffles, ich, fish flashing, cycle stalls, literally any ole' anomaly and call it a day done well for the greater society. it'll likely fix some issues along the way for sure.

heck, use it for flatworm dips. no need to complete a 10 day prescribed course, if a flatworm dies, it's the cipro that did it we can triumph in unison.

 

[brandon429]

be sure and read post #62, they're doctors in the US / family physicians/ not the WHO.

it's true that a collective set of reefers on r2r or other forums don't have better medical insight than practicing md's who say this is a terrible idea. if they were the WHO we could jeer away.

so the next time a web poster has a broken bone: save your $, get a reefer to diagnose and set it.

next time someone here comes down with strep/no need to actually ID it from plating out samples in agar, at a hospital, heck just take some of that cipro. its neat we pick and choose when we need and listen to doctors= forum reefers. can grow corals=able to handle it all/heck doctors should take notes from us on medical procedures vs the other way around.

 

[MnFish1]

be sure and read post #62, they're doctors in the US / family physicians/ not the WHO.

it's true that a collective set of reefers on r2r or other forums don't have better medical insight than practicing md's who say this is a terrible idea. if they were the WHO we could jeer away.

so the next time a web poster has a broken bone: save your $, get a reefer to diagnose and set it.

next time someone here comes down with strep/no need to actually ID it from plating out samples in agar, at a hospital, heck just take some of that cipro. its neat we pick and choose when we need and listen to doctors= forum reefers. can grow corals=able to handle it all/heck chat gpt should take notes from us on medical procedures vs the other way around.

I'm a microbiologist and a physician. And - just for the sake of information - they don't do bacterial testing (for the most part) like that anymore - instead - they start with a rapid strep test (which tests for strep antigens) - one problem - streptococcus is present in many 'normal' mouths.

In rethinking this topic - @JCOLE I'm going to change my tone a little. There is a difference in 'treating a disease' vs. 'prophylactic treatment/dipping'. For example - though I'm a fish medic - and routinely suggest antibiotic xxx or treatment yyy, I would never recommend, for example - a prophylactic antibiotic treatment as part of quarantine. I would (and I think you said this) - ONLY use antibiotics for coral as a last resort. My problem is - there are 500 antibiotics from which to choose - Cipro would be the last - for multiple reasons.

(Hypocrisy admission) - I just had a massive issue with my tank - which I described in detail in another post - resulting in a huge amount of Cyanobacteria (and the death of every invertebrate - except a couple mushrooms) - and I used chemiclean (which purportedly contains erythromycin. However - that is an antibiotic that is rarely used currently - due to other alternatives - BUT- the process of cross-resistance could have occurred

 

[brandon429]

in that thread we/I brainstormed ways reefers can quit using cipro for anemone care (its the sole reason they're using it)


1. use observation tanks vs skipping fallow and inputting an infected anemone into your main system, that'll get you a host of fish diseases too, let infected anemones die if they can't adapt-they die in your obs tank not your main display. they're weak and not meant to be alive

get creative in the obs tank for treatment options, don't use cipro there either, do what we did in 2003 to keep anemones alive nobody was doing this en masse back then even if someone can drum up a thread where one captain cool was doing so, it wasn't readily available like it is now, I'm sure someone used their home supplies on it / found a way.

2. use pro biotics to outcompete, quit being lazy using antibiotics to remove

3. quit running filthy sandbeds / high bacterial systems in anemone disease-prone tanks, design your tank for high throughput and low storage since bacterial issues are your trend and you're using shortcuts to thinking to fix it

4. someone else add some ideas, a team effort is how we win collectively


5. use UV, oversized strong UV as they're indicated in bacterial management for the last 30+ years

there must be ten more ways a team effort could concoct to make changes in this matter / post helpful ideas as they arise, people need help keeping anemones alive is the sole reason we're on this 3 page rager. Why is it nano reefers don't have this problem/that's ironic. we can grow any anemone you want in a tiny square box if it physically fits in there. full size reefers who can't proceed without cipro: go to nano-reef.com and request a coach/they will fix up your big tank remotely.

 

[Rmckoy]

@brandon429
This started off as a great post . But soon when down the same path as most ….

Back on topic ….
I agree there are many risks associated with reefing and not 100% convinced a classroom is the best place . But … with everything. Education is key .
and where else could be a better place to educate even the youngest students on everything from basic for younger students such as feeding is a privilege and rewarded to one student per day .

there are thousands of reports ( that I’m not searching for ) proving the benefits of having aquariums in classrooms as well as homes and how they positively reflect people with a range of disabilities including depression and autism
The benefit of having an aquarium out weighs the risks if everyone involved is properly educated !

 

[brandon429]

Well said. I think the key takeaways are don't touch the reef items (kids) and probably don't keep palys until the aerosolization potential gets worked out. Thanks for posting for sure

 

[MnFish1]

in that thread we/I brainstormed ways reefers can quit using cipro for anemone care (its the sole reason they're using it)


1. use observation tanks vs skipping fallow and inputting an infected anemone into your main system, that'll get you a host of fish diseases too, let infected anemones die if they can't adapt-they die in your obs tank not your main display. they're weak and not meant to be alive

get creative in the obs tank for treatment options, don't use cipro there either, do what we did in 2003 to keep anemones alive nobody was doing this en masse back then even if someone can drum up a thread where one captain cool was doing so, it wasn't readily available like it is now, I'm sure someone used their home supplies on it / found a way.

2. use pro biotics to outcompete, quit being lazy using antibiotics to remove

3. quit running filthy sandbeds / high bacterial systems in anemone disease-prone tanks, design your tank for high throughput and low storage since bacterial issues are your trend and you're using shortcuts to thinking to fix it

4. someone else add some ideas, a team effort is how we win collectively


5. use UV, oversized strong UV as they're indicated in bacterial management for the last 30+ years

there must be ten more ways a team effort could concoct to make changes in this matter / post helpful ideas as they arise, people need help keeping anemones alive is the sole reason we're on this 3 page rager. Why is it nano reefers don't have this problem/that's ironic. we can grow any anemone you want in a tiny square box if it physically fits in there. full size reefers who can't proceed without cipro: go to nano-reef.com and request a coach/they will fix up your big tank remotely.

There is no evidence that probiotics prevent anemone disease - but perhaps your post is a little scattered? Agree that a deep sandbed is not needed for a successful in 2023. However - many People pretend that a refugium - with a deep sand bed is different - In fact - they are both deep sand bed tanks. The sump is basically the same as the tank. this is why I stopped using a refugium.

 

[brandon429]

In the years past I would have equated a classroom nano reef with that of a common turtle tank (salmonella risk but a million classrooms have turtles)

My own thread has changed my mind though, I never knew all these welts and bumps and streaks on the arm and sepsis and vibrio and palytoxin were so expressed such that it's easy to find working recent examples once a month in forums. The dang things are apparently dangerous to a decent portion of the populous/

 

[MnFish1]

In the years past I would have equated a classroom nano reef with that of a common turtle tank (salmonella risk but a million classrooms have turtles)

My own thread has changed my mind though, I never knew all these welts and bumps and streaks on the arm and sepsis and vibrio and palytoxin were so expressed such that it's easy to find working recent examples once a month in forums. The dang things are apparently dangerous to a decent portion of the populous/

Kids should not be sticking their hands/arms into a nano tank in a classroom. LOL this is somewhat silly - no?

 

[JCOLE]

I'm a microbiologist and a physician. And - just for the sake of information - they don't do bacterial testing (for the most part) like that anymore - instead - they start with a rapid strep test (which tests for strep antigens) - one problem - streptococcus is present in many 'normal' mouths.

In rethinking this topic - @JCOLE I'm going to change my tone a little. There is a difference in 'treating a disease' vs. 'prophylactic treatment/dipping'. For example - though I'm a fish medic - and routinely suggest antibiotic xxx or treatment yyy, I would never recommend, for example - a prophylactic antibiotic treatment as part of quarantine. I would (and I think you said this) - ONLY use antibiotics for coral as a last resort. My problem is - there are 500 antibiotics from which to choose - Cipro would be the last - for multiple reasons.

(Hypocrisy admission) - I just had a massive issue with my tank - which I described in detail in another post - resulting in a huge amount of Cyanobacteria (and the death of every invertebrate - except a couple mushrooms) - and I used chemiclean (which purportedly contains erythromycin. However - that is an antibiotic that is rarely used currently - due to other alternatives - BUT- the process of cross-resistance could have occurred

100% agree. Using Cipro on dying animals should be the only option. I also agree that Cipro is aggressive and would be the last option. I've never seen an antibiotic as effective for Arcobacter, Brown Jelly Disease, White Band Disease, and common RTN and STN as Cipro.

I believe we are on the right track, and this is what will help the hobby. Instead of telling everyone to stop using antibiotics for everything, we should educate and assist other hobbyists in performing treatments safely. This is what will lead to another discovery in the hobby, where we will hopefully no longer need Cipro but a safer treatment.

 

[brandon429]

When MNFish relayed his own trip to the hospital i was amazed. He's trained on aseptic handling techniques/ young and healthy /still had an issue so that was a standout post to me. We're all at risk then, it seems.

 

[Rmckoy]

Please STOP CIPROFLOXACIN DIPS and other antibiotics

I have a question, doesn't a large fraction of antibiotics (original or converted form) end up in the human feces ending up in sewers? isn't this a bigger issue to be addressed? just to be clear I am not underestimating the issue being discussed in this thread but I am just wondering. It is...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Spare time]

Actually - he is right - as a microbiologist - Most people misuse antibiotics - whether for fish or demanding an MD give their child an antibiotic for a viral infection. Now - thats not implying some nefarious intent - parents want to get their kids better ASAP - As do teachers. However - looking at statistics Most infections - in a classroom/community - are viral. No offense

Lol that guy would be the one in the early 1900's yelling over-each when 7 year old kids couldn't work in factories.

 

[Rmckoy]

It almost seams ironic that 2 posts with very similar discussions .

 

[brandon429]

I didn't know about that other one it's why I pounced again here today lol


I was never going to bump this thread again until I saw that one bumped by someone else this morning, insert meme of the general Lee ramping off a dirt ramp over a pond yelling yeehaw is how it felt