Human safety issues aren't rare-discuss classroom reefs, home reef-caused infections in humans. this is an untold side of home reef tanking

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brandon429

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why did you put a reef in that
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Lol

blank your own address agreed

the website had to mail it to you without verifying any aspect of its use, of course you can block that out.


give the address of the prescribing dr plus the local pharmacy you filled it at.

see where it says fish pet owner on the bottle, thats part of the problem. A dr at a clinic didn’t prescribe that, no diagnosis was given to get that, you just scored it online like I could score deca durabolin online with a few clicks. the ease of access for these antibiotics is the issue.

I know anyone can score it online, of course I wouldn’t pay for that. It’s the problem you’re causing by advocating it

show the location of the prescribing dr and the pharmacy you picked it up at. My blood pressure medicine comes from here, it’s not a problem for me to post a nearby grocery store I get lisinopril at:
8AF17608-C079-418D-9EA4-799124819F24.png


here’s the place I got the scrip:

40CE3308-ABA1-4365-AA12-C0B53EF09D92.png

see how cleanly that’s documented? Not from an online chop shop. I would not pay you to prove you can get cipro from an online chop shop who doesn’t care about mass mutations going unchecked nor supply chain potential issues by trying to help goldfish feel better.


the point of the incentive is to show no legit doctor would do that.
 
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Tamberav

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In June 2023 they are regulating a bunch of otc antibiotics for livestock but not sure if it includes Cipro or if it effects any Fish medications. Basically farmers will need a rx.

FDA may crack down on OTC fish meds eventually.
 
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Tamberav

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Also idk why you questioning their prescription. My vet said they would give me meds for my fish if I brought the fish in. I didn’t ask about nems but he basically said he didn’t know anything about fish but would research and give me a rx if I needed.

There is even a website to find a fish vet but obviously these type of exotic vets are probably only in major cities.

 
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brandon429

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B1D7D1FE-8D54-42EB-B6BF-3B65321FD0EA.jpeg

hey can you spin the bottle around take a pic lemme see what it says on the ‘dazole part was just curious
 
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brandon429

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I’m questioning it because scoring it online without matching to true needs is the issue, it’s anyone’s click to be able to get it easily and that’s the problem.

legitimate physicians will not fling it out the door. I didn’t think all these thousands of guesstimate applications weren’t getting it from chop shops in bulk online never actually meeting with anyone

meds get regulated because…



we still don’t have any articles to read other than saying not to use it flippantly

post some

show a vet article advising wide scale use in a reef tank because anemones looked unhappy.
 

skyrne_isk

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Lol

blank your own address agreed

the website had to mail it to you without verifying any aspect of its use, of course you can block that out.


give the address of the prescribing dr plus the local pharmacy you filled it at
At this point, you are appear mentally unstable or at least unhinged. You want local information on me to what end? Call them up? Yell at them? You strange bro.

Here’s what I think: You are demonstrably ignorant about pharmacology and apparently veterinary medicine as well. I am clearly going to my vet, who is writing me prescriptions to a major retail pharmacy. Major retail pharmacy have a DEA license and require SPI numbers from providers to prescribe. You either can’t understand this or don’t want to. And what you think about it? I don’t care.
 
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brandon429

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Anyone can order from these places with no meeting required, thats the issue.

D003F57C-1A9A-4BC2-BFC9-61F73C203BFC.png

you hinted you were able to get a legit doctor to prescribe it, I didn’t think that was the case at all. Bulk online sales are the issue.
 
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brandon429

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@skyrne_isk of course thats your response. You buy from bulk sell places, don’t post studies showing its wise, there’s myriad studies showing it’s not wise, you advocate to other reefers there’s no impact from uncontrolled mass use and I claim that’s what needs to stop as we review medical impacts from reefing


there is no advised use of blanket antibiotics from legitimate sources. Legitimate sources you can find advise against it.
 

Tamberav

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I’m questioning it because scoring it online without matching to true needs is the issue, it’s anyone’s click to be able to get it easily and that’s the problem.

legitimate physicians will not fling it out the door. I didn’t think all these thousands of guesstimate applications weren’t getting it from chop shops in bulk online never actually meeting with anyone

meds get regulated because…



we still don’t have any articles to read other than saying not to use it flippantly

post some

show a vet article advising wide scale use in a reef tank because anemones looked unhappy.

Then you need to be writing officials, politicians, or FDA or idk who tbh... It needs to be more difficult to obtain then just buying fish cipro from wherever online because right now... you can do that with no Rx. If something is harder to get then many will simply not bother.

They are cracking down on antibiotics for livestock starting June 2023, Canada awhile back already cracked down on fish meds. I would not be surprised if eventually the US cracks down on fish meds too. I mean if they can make it more work for farmers, then making it more work for hobby level fish nerds should be even easier.
 
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Tamberav

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What about teaching a safer way to use antibiotics?

Like.. don't use it in a display tank exposing an entire ecosystem of bacteria to cipro.

Instead use a clean QT tank and when done, run carbon to remove cipro and dispose of the carbon instead of dumping antibiotic water down the drain or on the grass?

I made that up but it sounds better to me to limit what bacteria you are expositing to cipro.
 

MnFish1

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I don't see how a reef environment scrape is any different than getting a scrape anywhere else outside. Y'all have heard about soap and cleaning small cuts so they don't get infected, right? This isn't aquarium knowledge, it's simple first aid and germ theory...
This is not completely true - For example - if you scratch yourself on a nail outside you have a scratch. If you have a scratch from a knife, you h ave a scratch. If you scratch yourself on coral, etc - it is fairly common to have small piece(s) of calcium carbonate go into the cut - and without high pressure rinsing, stay there - the bacteria that are on them - then multiply. Having any foreign wound is a much higher risk for infection. Plus the stinging tissue on the coral can cause problems. here is a nice article describing some of the differences: https://dan.org/health-medicine/health-resources/diseases-conditions/coral-scrapes-cuts/
 

MnFish1

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MRSA was a figure of speech to highlight the consequences reefers don’t care about. When I posted someone’s arm might fall off, thats the same figure


what does not apply is any friend to friend prescriptions such as a nurse who gets a dr bro to write the prescription on the side


you go to a clinic walk in, like a normal person, get seen, leave with a prescription showing the Dr.‘s name address info of the practice then then pickup from the local pharmacy. Do it legit @skyrne_isk

and if you don’t, you should pay up the forty. If a practicing physician I can call to verify is that flippant I’ll happily pay up. Of course they aren’t going to verify your medical visit with me, but we will be discussing the photograph of the prescription I have as posted to social media for sure. In no way is a dr at a clinic going to give you a prescription for your reef tank.
I Do not believe it's legal for MD's to prescribe medication to animals - nor for veterinarians to prescribe medications to people. This is for a variety of reasons. Many commonly used human medications are toxic to animals for example ibuprofen (Motrin in dogs, Tylenol in cats). It would be practicing veterinary medicine without a license
 
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brandon429

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Tamberav you always have such a great way of communicating reefing modes. I enjoy your posts here and on nr.com and on hf's site. good job for the hobby's benefit across the board.

I just like to predict trending in reefing, it's fun. I think this angle on bacteria modulation will matter one day

I've been deep reading on it for two hours now- it's like this as a breakdown:

anything medical, anything studied as epidemiology from multiple colleges and theses, is full stop to what we're doing, with constant mention of potential harm and consequence to cipro specifically / antibiotics in general when used loosely


aquarists are using it very very very loosely with guesstimate doses, sustain times / across the board it's loose


the aquarium version on cipro use in the tank is: ten thousand people en masse absolutely going full throttle on it lol/unfettered access/ and not one single paper or study in their favor for the safety aspect.

attempts to keep anemones happy without broad-spectrum antibiotics fall to the wayside, this mode here is becoming the default guess way people deal with infections on corals and perceived infections in anemones.

not one aquarium use formal study exists that I've seen advising mass application, among ten thousand readable studies warning against cipro flippant use without matching targets and without specific sustained courses to kill/truly squelch the targets vs feed them evolutionary fuel.


So we are doing something on a wide scale in the hobby that has no papers published? amazing.

there's an stark distinction between studies able to be found on no holds barred cipro dosing in aquaria, and anything regarding human medical practice so to me that belongs as a valid review where we're blending medical impacts and reefing.


I didn't think it should go unmentioned... or continued at the current rate we're continuing it just because eighty online vendors are willing to grab that cash from the bulk clickers.

cipro is too widely used by us to be just given up lightly, its a cheat fallback to good husbandry that can't last forever in effectiveness, per the studies I am directly seeing that we can all search too.

until we see some studies saying: go ahead, dole it out to fifty thousand home aquarists for application and re application ad libitum, I'm holding firm this is a bad trend we're doing.

Forum bros are never going to listen in the matter, they'll always be experts that other people should follow in their own minds no matter what the greater scientific community is saying
 
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MnFish1

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Lol

blank your own address agreed

the website had to mail it to you without verifying any aspect of its use, of course you can block that out.


give the address of the prescribing dr plus the local pharmacy you filled it at.

see where it says fish pet owner on the bottle, thats part of the problem. A dr at a clinic didn’t prescribe that, no diagnosis was given to get that, you just scored it online like I could score deca durabolin online with a few clicks. the ease of access for these antibiotics is the issue.

I know anyone can score it online, of course I wouldn’t pay for that. It’s the problem you’re causing by advocating it

show the location of the prescribing dr and the pharmacy you picked it up at. My blood pressure medicine comes from here, it’s not a problem for me to post a nearby grocery store I get lisinopril at:
8AF17608-C079-418D-9EA4-799124819F24.png


here’s the place I got the scrip:

40CE3308-ABA1-4365-AA12-C0B53EF09D92.png

see how cleanly that’s documented? Not from an online chop shop. I would not pay you to prove you can get cipro from an online chop shop who doesn’t care about mass mutations going unchecked nor supply chain potential issues by trying to help goldfish feel better.


the point of the incentive is to show no legit doctor would do that.
FYi - that's a clear 'CVS bottle' and second - What name should a pharmacy put on a label for a fish. For our dog - with seizures, the label says xxx dog xxxx. With my date of birth. Fish don't have names. So - Fish pet owner would seem to be the only way to do it. They can't use the name of the human - since that would suggest to all the connected computer systems that the human was taking that medication
 

MnFish1

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What about teaching a safer way to use antibiotics?

Like.. don't use it in a display tank exposing an entire ecosystem of bacteria to cipro.

Instead use a clean QT tank and when done, run carbon to remove cipro and dispose of the carbon instead of dumping antibiotic water down the drain or on the grass?

I made that up but it sounds better to me to limit what bacteria you are expositing to cipro.
One thing about cipro is that it's rapidly degraded by light. As other people have said - it's not often used for MRSA - because of already high resistance levels.
 

Griev

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This is not completely true - For example - if you scratch yourself on a nail outside you have a scratch. If you have a scratch from a knife, you h ave a scratch. If you scratch yourself on coral, etc - it is fairly common to have small piece(s) of calcium carbonate go into the cut - and without high pressure rinsing, stay there - the bacteria that are on them - then multiply. Having any foreign wound is a much higher risk for infection. Plus the stinging tissue on the coral can cause problems. here is a nice article describing some of the differences: https://dan.org/health-medicine/health-resources/diseases-conditions/coral-scrapes-cuts/

Did you read the article you shared? It really doesn't support what you wrote, and actually outlines pretty standard first aid for any scrapes or cuts. Same basics as any other wilderness first aid guidance.

Maybe in the case of a diver being pushed hard into a coral by currents or a wave could I see something along the lines of what you described with a piece of coral stuck in the wound, but it would take an incredible act of clumsiness to reproduce in a home aquarium and isn't any different than any other foreign material in a wound (E.g. splinters, dirt, etc.).
 

MnFish1

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Did you read the article you shared? It really doesn't support what you wrote, and actually outlines pretty standard first aid for any scrapes or cuts. Same basics as any other wilderness first aid guidance.

Maybe in the case of a diver being pushed hard into a coral by currents or a wave could I see something along the lines of what you described with a piece of coral stuck in the wound, but it would take an incredible act of clumsiness to reproduce in a home aquarium and isn't any different than any other foreign material in a wound (E.g. splinters, dirt, etc.).
disagree - sorry the rest of my post didn't post. In a nano tank with 8 gallons you might be right - in a 200 gallon tank - it's the same as it is in the wild. Infections from tanks are rare - infections from the beach are rare. I think you're doing a disservice to people by - suggesting it's a non-issue.
 
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Coach v

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This information is NOT part of the initial reads in classroom reef setups. Student interactions in the reef tanks are limited and controlled by the teacher I'm aware, but not to the degree I see bacterial/inflammation/respiratory transfer issues mentioned in classroom builds over the years.

I have recently (four days ago issue still pending no updates) in online in live chats watched a reef tanker develop such a pronounced arm and leg infection from cleaning out a reef tank that for them not to have provided updates in our thread in four days is deeply seriously concerning and the reason for this thread.

I'm stating the person's reaction was so bad, its not a non-issue in reefing its a dedicated study we need especially for classroom setting reefs. I'm sure the biology teachers are in control of the settings, they're not being haphazard, so this is merely a discussion on the inherent but often unspoken risks in our hobby.




Please stay out of my classroom with your demands for even more regulation!
 

MnFish1

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Been pounded on more Indo and Pacific reefs than I can remember and have had a few full cheese graters on back, feet and arms. The key is to flush marine substrate wounds thoroughly with fresh water as soon as possible and then disinfect.
One possible bias that I have is immunosuppression. I have ended up in the ER twice with infections after scratching myself on coral, etc in the tank - once just with an open wound. According to the Infectious disease MD I saw - the vast majority of the time - an infection is going to be your own skin bacteria - however - if its a marine organism - it can be a big problem. Thus totally agree with your comment:)
 

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