Hydrogen Peroxide Dosing. 1 mL in 10 Gallons Is A Dud Against GHA

[Dan_P]

There are many species of GHA some might just be more resistant to peroxide dosing than others.

Had that very same thought when I read Brandon’s post last night. I found a list of 23 species (no idea how authoritative this list is) but found pictures for only 3 so far. They looked like green hair algae. I am thinking that we should not assume all reported instances of GHA are the same species, or even a Derbesia species, especially since so many aquarists mix up the classification of diatoms, dinoflagellates and cyanobacteria. Of course, this does not mean peroxide works

 

[taricha]

If I'm looking for an explanation to try to bring @Dan_P 's data in line with @brandon429 's long list of aquarium hobbyist observations, I might look at the growth conditions of the derbesia.
In Dan's test the derbesia grew rapidly in 6 days - seemingly growing out of the dish - indicating that it was very well nourished. Tank conditions are rarely as replete as that. Derbesia can explode, but usually the hobbyist fights it down to a slow growth and that might be the expected conditions under which h2o2 is applied.
@Randy Holmes-Farley occasionally mentions that peroxide may be effective by changing the availability of metals like Fe.
Dan's demonstrated before how rapidly Fe disappears in aquaria, and perhaps if we know something about the metal content of the media, this might advance the story in that direction. I do think the persistence of the h2o2 in the media and the continued gha growth strong evidence that the oxidizer damage to the algae alone is not going to kill the algae.

 

[Dan_P]

If I'm looking for an explanation to try to bring @Dan_P 's data in line with @brandon429 's long list of aquarium hobbyist observations, I might look at the growth conditions of the derbesia.
In Dan's test the derbesia grew rapidly in 6 days - seemingly growing out of the dish - indicating that it was very well nourished. Tank conditions are rarely as replete as that. Derbesia can explode, but usually the hobbyist fights it down to a slow growth and that might be the expected conditions under which h2o2 is applied.
@Randy Holmes-Farley occasionally mentions that peroxide may be effective by changing the availability of metals like Fe.
Dan's demonstrated before how rapidly Fe disappears in aquaria, and perhaps if we know something about the metal content of the media, this might advance the story in that direction. I do think the persistence of the h2o2 in the media and the continued gha growth strong evidence that the oxidizer damage to the algae alone is not going to kill the algae.

i am growing one culture with 10 ppm nitrate. That may sound high but keep in mind these are batch cultures. They consume the nitrate quickly. That means they are near 0 ppm nitrate for a couple days before the medium is renewed. This may still be too generous.

@taricha and I have learned how much cultured photosynthetic organisms suffer when we are generous with light intensity but starve them of nitrogen. So, I wonder. The right species, light intensity, nitrogen depletion, plus the additional stress of peroxide. Is that the secret potion for killing algae.

 

[Anirban]

Dosing 3% hydrogen peroxide to an aquarium has been reported as an affective treatment for green hair algae (GHA). Applying it at a rate of 1 mL per 10 gallons, or about 1 ppm, GHA is supposed to die within days. I wondered if this were true because hydrogen peroxide is not stable in an aquarium.

My first test was a “let’s see what happens” type of experiment. In one test, I dosed hydrogen peroxide to a petri dish which contained a mass of growing GHA in 12 mL of medium. A second experiment involved a similar amount of GHA in a petri dish, but this time the dish was submerged in 100 mL of medium. The point of this second experiment was to expose the GHA to much more hydrogen peroxide before it decomposed. Each experiment was dosed daily for six days. The plots below shows how long the hydrogen peroxide lasted after dosing in each experiment. The 12 mL test roughly exposes GHA for a time similar to that in an aquarium. A visual and microscopic examination on day 7 revealed no apparent effect.

The next experiment included controls and also tested whether a low nitrate level (10 ppm v 100 ppm) might enhance the effect of H2O2. The cultures were actively growing in 30 mL of medium. This gave an exposure time between the extremes in first experiments. The culture was dosed daily for six days and examined on day 7. No difference was noted between the controls and tests at high and low nitrate levels.

The final test used a GHA culture similar to the one used in the first experiment, but submerged in 1 L of medium to dramatically increase the the exposure time to hydrogen peroxide. The plot below shows the hydrogen peroxide concentration after a daily dose. Unlike the previous experiments, hydrogen peroxide was present throughout the day. The experiment was dosed daily for five days. The before and after photographs below provide no visual evidence of an effect on day 6.

BEFORE

AFTER

Why does hydrogen peroxide appear to be an ineffective GHA treatment?

I found numerous scientific papers demonstrating hydrogen peroxide’s deleterious effects on freshwater and marine organisms at or below 1 ppm. Two conditions seem to be important for this effect. The organism has to be susceptible to hydrogen peroxide poisoning and the concentration must be sufficiently high. GHA (or organisms growing on the filaments) seems more than capable destroying hydrogen peroxide, keeping it at very low concentrations. It also seems to be able to keep hydrogen peroxide from entering its filaments even when it cannot completely destroy it. A more careful look might reveal some level of stress experienced by GHA exposed to hydrogen peroxide, but it does not seem to qualify as an algicide.

By the way, these GHA cultures aren't off the hook yet. They are now being exposed to Vibrant.

I have couple of questions or comments..

1. How do you measure hydrogen peroxide decomposition rate? What assay did you use to measure the H2O2 breakdown?
2. Hydrogen peroxide basically oxidize biological molecules like protein, lipid or DNA when it breaks down into free radicals such as the hydroxyl (HO·) and hydroperoxyl (HOO·) in presence of metal ions, such as Fe2+ .But to oxidize any biological molecule it needs to get inside the cell. But like plant algae cells also have cell walls. Now 1PPM hydrogen peroxide is equivalent to approx 30uM final concentration. That concentration will barely do any damage to anything in short duration unless chronically exposed. That is why if we take out the GHA infested rocks with and treat them directly with 30% that is always a better idea than in tank treatment. But with that much of concentration it will also kill the beneficial bacteria on the rock.

 

[brandon429]

Insert one tenet challenge
-nobody has ever tested peroxide effects on nitrifers on live rocks in all of reefing, I’ll vote it doesn’t harm, not enough dwell time.

on the whole internet, peroxide has not been shown tested to undo a cycle whatsoever, on live rock convoluted football field surface area. Perhaps on a cold glass slide, no insulations. But not for live rock. we have data from overdose threads the ld50/lose nitrification ability for reef substrates has not been found using peroxide.


there was once a guy with ban stick friends, his name was Disc-1


he claimed to get 1 mil in ten gallons of water to kill nitrifers in a lab, lysing cells into oblivion he stated.



never produced a pic, or data at all. We then proceeded to begin mass peroxide in about fifty thousand reefs for eight years, to get some data. even in overdoses, all tested systems pass oxidation work. not one was cycle reversed.

not much of that applies here it was just fun to type

 

[jeffrey750750]

I will never use h202 again for gha, yes it does work. Works too well, enough to start up the dreaded dinos. The best thing you can do is spend 4 bucks on a great big Mexican turbo snail. I had 3 in my 60, poof and it's all gone

 

[Wolf89]

Hydrogen peroxide is super effective against GHA IME. First, I've never directly dosed it to the tank for this purpose. I have dosed it to my tank for other reasons and it 100% prevented new growth and killed old growth. But, I dosed h2o2 at 1 ml per 2.5 gallons. H2o2 is perfectly reef safe, including anemones, crabs, fish, shrimp, coral, etc. I have tested it at a 1:1 ratio with no side effects. So when you say you did 1 ml per 10 gallons, I ask why? Why not to 1 ml per 5 gallons, or per 3 gallons?


Hydrogen peroxide is also a very effective dip against gha. I've dipped rocks in a 1:1 ratio of water and 3% h2o2 for 3-5 minutes and have killed all the gha (as well as bristle worms, etc). You can also use h2o2 on zoa plugs to rid it of algae based pests, but I've not tried it on my sensitive corals.

 

[Jeeperz]

Hydrogen peroxide is super effective against GHA IME. First, I've never directly dosed it to the tank for this purpose. I have dosed it to my tank for other reasons and it 100% prevented new growth and killed old growth. But, I dosed h2o2 at 1 ml per 2.5 gallons. H2o2 is perfectly reef safe, including anemones, crabs, fish, shrimp, coral, etc. I have tested it at a 1:1 ratio with no side effects. So when you say you did 1 ml per 10 gallons, I ask why? Why not to 1 ml per 5 gallons, or per 3 gallons?


Hydrogen peroxide is also a very effective dip against gha. I've dipped rocks in a 1:1 ratio of water and 3% h2o2 for 3-5 minutes and have killed all the gha (as well as bristle worms, etc). You can also use h2o2 on zoa plugs to rid it of algae based pests, but I've not tried it on my sensitive corals.

No proof but I bet if I drained half my tank and topped up with h2o2, everything would die. But that's pure speculation on my part.

My GHA is dark green/reddish. Doesn't pull easily and fragments. I may try pulling another rock and scrub then pour standard store bought h2o2 over it then rinse and back in to see if that works. Will dumping h2o2 over a rock kill all the beneficial bacteria on it?

 

[SDK]

What did you learn about the peroxide concentration and catalyst numbers? I am thinking of buying an Oxydator.

You will see a significant jump in ORP, and I have had a decline in nuisance algae since I started using them. Having said that, I would be interested to see some hard data...

What size tank will you be testing in? If 10 gallons or less I have an Oxydator mini I can loan you for testing purposes. Send me a PM if interested and you can just return it to me when you are done...

 

[Dan_P]

I have couple of questions or comments..

1. How do you measure hydrogen peroxide decomposition rate? What assay did you use to measure the H2O2 breakdown?
2. Hydrogen peroxide basically oxidize biological molecules like protein, lipid or DNA when it breaks down into free radicals such as the hydroxyl (HO·) and hydroperoxyl (HOO·) in presence of metal ions, such as Fe2+ .But to oxidize any biological molecule it needs to get inside the cell. But like plant algae cells also have cell walls. Now 1PPM hydrogen peroxide is equivalent to approx 30uM final concentration. That concentration will barely do any damage to anything in short duration unless chronically exposed. That is why if we take out the GHA infested rocks with and treat them directly with 30% that is always a better idea than in tank treatment. But with that much of concentration it will also kill the beneficial bacteria on the rock.

Hanna sells a H2O2 test kit. H2O2 oxidizes iodide to iodine under acidic conditions. After the reaction, the solution is titrated with thiosulfate.

As for how it works, yes, that is my understanding. As for how much is lethal, it depends on the organism. There are organisms that are sensitive to exposure to 1 ppm or less H2O2 (Yes, I too was surprised to read this). Because of this fact, I went ahead to investigate H2O2 at the reportedly effective dose of 1 mL per 10 gallon. You’ll notice in the 1 L experiment, the algae was chronically exposed. By the way, a species of Oscillatoria cyanobacteria I have been culturing also shrugs off repeated doses of 1 ppm H2O2.

Finally, I have heard about you maniacs pouring rocket fuel on algae covered rocks

 

[Dan_P]

Hydrogen peroxide is super effective against GHA IME. First, I've never directly dosed it to the tank for this purpose. I have dosed it to my tank for other reasons and it 100% prevented new growth and killed old growth. But, I dosed h2o2 at 1 ml per 2.5 gallons. H2o2 is perfectly reef safe, including anemones, crabs, fish, shrimp, coral, etc. I have tested it at a 1:1 ratio with no side effects. So when you say you did 1 ml per 10 gallons, I ask why? Why not to 1 ml per 5 gallons, or per 3 gallons?


Hydrogen peroxide is also a very effective dip against gha. I've dipped rocks in a 1:1 ratio of water and 3% h2o2 for 3-5 minutes and have killed all the gha (as well as bristle worms, etc). You can also use h2o2 on zoa plugs to rid it of algae based pests, but I've not tried it on my sensitive corals.

The test of 1 mL per ten gallons is predicated on it being a popular dose.

H2O2 rapidly decomposes in an aquarium and may explain why dosing larger amounts is safe: it simply doesn’t exist long enough to do any harm.

In the spirit of scientific enquiry, I would ask what a 1:1 dip of RODI in tank water do to GHA.

 

[Anirban]

Hanna sells a H2O2 test kit. H2O2 oxidizes iodide to iodine under acidic conditions. After the reaction, the solution is titrated with thiosulfate.

As for how it works, yes, that is my understanding. As for how much is lethal, it depends on the organism. There are organisms that are sensitive to exposure to 1 ppm or less H2O2 (Yes, I too was surprised to read this). Because of this fact, I went ahead to investigate H2O2 at the reportedly effective dose of 1 mL per 10 gallon. You’ll notice in the 1 L experiment, the algae was chronically exposed. By the way, a species of Oscillatoria cyanobacteria I have been culturing also shrugs off repeated doses of 1 ppm H2O2.

Finally, I have heard about you maniacs pouring rocket fuel on algae covered rocks

You are right about that different organism react or resist peroxide differently. But in scientific or medical term chronic exposure is not days its actually months or year. Peroxide is highly unstable compound it starts degrading overtime even in the closed bottle. Its killing activity depends only on how much superoxide it generates when it breaks down and you can measure it but you will quite a bit of high end instruments to do it.

As far maniacs pouring rocket fuel to destroy algae....hmmmm I can not say much about that. I am just a poor scientist dont have that much money to waste.

 

[Dan_P]

Insert one tenet challenge
-nobody has ever tested peroxide effects on nitrifers on live rocks in all of reefing, I’ll vote it doesn’t harm, not enough dwell time.

on the whole internet, peroxide has not been shown tested to undo a cycle whatsoever, on live rock convoluted football field surface area. Perhaps on a cold glass slide, no insulations. But not for live rock. we have data from overdose threads the ld50/lose nitrification ability for reef substrates has not been found using peroxide.


there was once a guy with ban stick friends, his name was Disc-1


he claimed to get 1 mil in ten gallons of water to kill nitrifers in a lab, lysing cells into oblivion he stated.



never produced a pic, or data at all. We then proceeded to begin mass peroxide in about fifty thousand reefs for eight years, to get some data. even in overdoses, all tested systems pass oxidation work. not one was cycle reversed.

not much of that applies here it was just fun to type

Funny thing, bacteria can be an important source of peroxide destroying enzyme in the aquarium and are likely the reason H2O2 levels near shore are lower than open ocean. Does it kill denitrifiers? I doubt it kills anything in an aquarium, simply too many bacteria.

 

[Dan_P]

You are right about that different organism react or resist peroxide differently. But in scientific or medical term chronic exposure is not days its actually months or year. Peroxide is highly unstable compound it starts degrading overtime even in the closed bottle. Its killing activity depends only on how much superoxide it generates when it breaks down and you can measure it but you will quite a bit of high end instruments to do it.

As far maniacs pouring rocket fuel to destroy algae....hmmmm I can not say much about that. I am just a poor scientist dont have that much money to waste.

Actually, hydrogen peroxide is quite stable in aquarium water, degrading over several days, but in an aquarium lasts only about an hour or two. The culprit: catalase and peroxidase enzymes. I suspect bacteria on surfaces play a big role.

 

[Anirban]

Actually, hydrogen peroxide is quite stable in aquarium water, degrading over several days, but in an aquarium lasts only about an hour or two. The culprit: catalase and peroxidase enzymes. I suspect bacteria on surfaces play a big role.

I was looking at your graphs in the first post. In the first graph you added 12ppm (blue line) and 100ppm (orange line) peroxide as per title. But at o hr time point both concentration shows 1.4-1.6 ppm as per graph. I dont understand if you added 12/100 ppm peroxide why the graph shows such low amount at beginning of experiment? If the graph is correct then before you started measuring you already lost atleast more than 10 fold (12ppm added to 1.2ppm measured).

 

[Dan_P]

I was looking at your graphs in the first post. In the first graph you added 12ppm (blue line) and 100ppm (orange line) peroxide as per title. But at o hr time point both concentration shows 1.4-1.6 ppm as per graph. I dont understand if you added 12/100 ppm peroxide why the graph shows such low amount at beginning of experiment? If the graph is correct then before you started measuring you already lost atleast more than 10 fold (12ppm added to 1.2ppm measured).

The “12” and “100” refer to the volume of medium used in the test. Sorry about the crappy labels. This demonstration shows that with the same amount of GHA, a larger volume of 1.2 ppm hydrogen peroxide requires a longer time to degrade. As an aside, the same level in an aquarium (for example, 100 gallons) of hydrogen peroxide degrades in 1-2 hours.

 

[atoll]

Actually, hydrogen peroxide is quite stable in aquarium water, degrading over several days, but in an aquarium lasts only about an hour or two. The culprit: catalase and peroxidase enzymes. I suspect bacteria on surfaces play a big role.

Hence why I believe hydrogen peroxide maybe (depending on what you wish to achieve) used in an Oxydator which uses peroxide continuously.

 

[mshur]

Guys, i would like to bring this thread back with a question. Planning on re aqua scaping my DT and would like to clean my life rock with peroxide 12% . Some of the rock has briopsys and aptasia. Will i kill all beneficial bacteria but using this method? After peroxide treatment i am planning to keep the rock in the separate tub for a few weeks. Trying to avoid using bleach for that matter..
Your thoughts...

 

[atoll]

Guys, i would like to bring this thread back with a question. Planning on re aqua scaping my DT and would like to clean my life rock with peroxide 12% . Some of the rock has briopsys and aptasia. Will i kill all beneficial bacteria but using this method? After peroxide treatment i am planning to keep the rock in the separate tub for a few weeks. Trying to avoid using bleach for that matter..
Your thoughts...

Hydrogen peroxide is a bleach and my guess is you will kill all submerged in it. You could try 3% but I couldn't guarantee you wouldnt kill all before it.

 

[mshur]

Hydrogen peroxide is a bleach and my guess is you will kill all submerged in it. You could try 3% but I couldn't guarantee you wouldnt kill all before it.

if you think i will kill all bacteria by dipping in peroxide maybe best way is to use bleach?