I am 100% against Marine Depot's new financing options

[cgdcinc]

I made up my mind. I'm pawning both of my cars for a new reef tank! [emoji468]

 

[d2mini]

Amazing how so many people defending business practices like Affirm would never use it themselves nor let their children use it or advise their friends coming into the hobby to use it!

If it's such a great option maybe those defending it the loudest should take advantage of it.

Taking advantage of people, the poor, and the uneducated is an old business. It's not new to millenials or this decade.

MD is a great on line retailer and I've spent tons over the years with them, but I can't say I like the fact that they partnered with Affirm.

I won't speak for anyone else, but I will clarify that I am not defending anyone's business practices.
I'm saying that a vendor can offer whatever financing options they want. It makes no difference to me. And it has no bearing on whether or not I'll shop there.

 

[WhiskeyCoffee]

Amazing how so many people defending business practices like Affirm would never use it themselves nor let their children use it or advise their friends coming into the hobby to use it!

If it's such a great option maybe those defending it the loudest should take advantage of it.

Taking advantage of people, the poor, and the uneducated is an old business. It's not new to millenials or this decade.

MD is a great on line retailer and I've spent tons over the years with them, but I can't say I like the fact that they partnered with Affirm.

Well said.

 

[Mr.Rocc]

All and all, If you don't want to use it don't. If you do want to use it..... well you've been warned by like 30 different people. However Marine Depot is just trying to help out their consumers.

 

[Elder1945]

Just as a side note i am defending people taking responsibility for it.

Also i used a payday loan service for over 2 years and now am a successful business owner who has employeed thousands of people around the world.

Including in the real "poor" in country's like Mauritius where the fight is not over a fish tank but real needs...

 

[Daniel@R2R]

@mdbannister



I never stated that financing options are inherently bad or evil (unless they have ridiculously high APRs). I disagree with people financing hobbies but to each their own.

Ok. See, now we're having a discussion. I would say determining what is a high APR is a point worth defining. In my mind, 10% isn't that high, but 30% is high. The range of 10-30% is about the same range that any credit card is going to fall into. So, fwiw, my opinion is that MD's financing option is within the same category as any credit card.

Unbalanced how? My point was that typically if you go with a real lender there are at least rewards, usually in the form of fraud / warrantly protection OR points, cashback, etc.

Ok. I think your points were unbalanced in that you characterize credit cards as typically being toward the lower end of the 10-30% range while assuming that MD's financing company will generally be closer to 30%. That seems to be an assumption you're making, as I'd argue it is unbalanced.

Also, it's already been pointed out that Affirm does offer fraud protection and that not all credit cards offer points or rewards. In fact, many of those same "legit" banks offer high APR credit options to customers with poor credit that come along with an annual fee. I won't take those credit options personally, but I don't think it mashes the bank any less legit that they're offered.

I don't believe I stated that. I even used an example of when I used credit (buying a brand new washer and dryer at 0% interest for 12 months).

Yes. You did, but many of your statements seemed so extreme to me that I wasn't sure what your perspective was. That's my perception of your statements and what it seemed was being implied. I appreciate the clarification.

I also never explicit stated that, however I am vehemently against financial institutions that make money off of people with little to no credit.

I think people making poor financial decisions is always a sad thing. However, there's certainly a spectrum/range in view that we'll all have differing opinions on where the line falls. I think that's worth exploring, but I think we need to respect that others will disagree with us on where that line is. Disagreements aren't bad. In fact, I've learned far more from people I disagree with than people that only reaffirm what I already believe. The danger is when we disrespect one another. Disagree with opinions while respecting the people who hold them.

So you don't think pay day loan companies deserve to be shunned?

Ok. My statement was too general. I see your point, and I'll add to it by saying I also disagree with unethical practices that may be offered as options to customers which may devalue human life/dignity. However, I don't think we can really compare MD to a payday loan company...perhaps you disagree, but this seems a bit hyperbolic to me. My point was that within ethical boundaries (and I think offering 10-30% credit option is a reasonable option), I don't have a problem with companies offering options to their customers.


So, my primary point in the previous posts was that being a staff member or partner member shouldn't change our ability to participate in the conversation. Let's all respect one another and continue the conversation civilly.

 

[GK3]

It's funny, I had a conversation with my LFS owner about this. He has a deal where >$1000 is 12 months same as cash, and >$2000 is 24 months same as cash. I went in to buy apex and saw this, immediately jumped on it. 12 months longer with my money, interest free, makes sense.

I then said even though I could pay for everything, I couldn't pass up on this. However, I would never pay interest for a hobby. Save up and buy it when you can.

Overall, I agree this is a bit of a scam to charge people up to 30% APR, way higher than any credit card I've seen.

 

[Mr.Rocc]

It's funny, I had a conversation with my LFS owner about this. He has a deal where >$1000 is 12 months same as cash, and >$2000 is 24 months same as cash. I went in to buy apex and saw this, immediately jumped on it. 12 months longer with my money, interest free, makes sense.

I then said even though I could pay for everything, I couldn't pass up on this. However, I would never pay interest for a hobby. Save up and buy it when you can.

Overall, I agree this is a bit of a scam to charge people up to 30% APR, way higher than any credit card I've seen.

Dang where do you go! I like that deal!
As stated earlier.... impulse buyer

 

[GK3]

Dang where do you go! I like that deal!
As stated earlier.... impulse buyer

Top shelf aquatics in Orlando.

 

[WhiskeyCoffee]

@mdbannister

Ok. I think your points were unbalanced in that you characterize credit cards as typically being toward the lower end of the 10-30% range while assuming that MD's financing company will generally be closer to 30%. That seems to be an assumption you're making, as I'd argue it is unbalanced.

Without doing my own independent research, I cannot prove Affirm's interest rates are any different (and that would really only reflect my credit). However, since Affirm only performs a soft pull on credit score, I am willing to bet they offer credit to people who cannot otherwise get a credit card and thus will charge them a higher interest rate plus the finance charge.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

@mdbannister



Without doing my own independent research, I cannot prove Affirm's interest rates are any different (and that would really only reflect my credit). However, since Affirm only performs a soft pull on credit score, I am willing to bet they offer credit to people who cannot otherwise get a credit card and thus will charge them a higher interest rate plus the finance charge.

Which may be a valid assumption, or it may not. Without empirical data, it's merely an assumption.

 

[FirstContact]

Just as a side note i am defending people taking responsibility for it.

Also i used a payday loan service for over 2 years and now am a successful business owner who has employeed thousands of people around the world.

Including in the real "poor" in country's like Mauritius where the fight is not over a fish tank but real needs...

Totally agree with you that personal responsibility plays a large role in this, but not everyone understands what they are getting into, or has the life experience to negotiate an offer like this. That's why so many of these practices get labeled as predatory.

 

[chomoney]

Ugh. Don't like it? Don't use it. It's not that hard.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

First of all I guess my point missed the mark. I know this individual at a casual level and do not think badly of him as a person. I do believe as a business owner I am responsible to my customers and community. Not everyone agrees with me on this. I live in a small community and we take care of each other since no one else will take care of us. We believe that we can make a difference in our community and lift each other up.

I guess you missed the part where those same individuals who borrow from him now need assistance to meet their water, utility bills, rent, and auto repairs and now have to resort to community service organizations to keep them and their families warm while paying off impossible bills? The point is I have a heart for people in financial bondage since I have been there. It is not the best practice to continue the downward spiral of individuals who lack the life skills to prevent their own destruction. It is akin to over serving a drunk knowing he is going to drive home because he is too drunk to walk.

By the way in some cases we (our community service organization) have paid off the lender to get people back on their feet again. So in our solution we gave to him without expectation on the behalf of those who could not pay him back. How have we wronged him, his employees, or his customer? We pay for back utility bills to keep them warm in the winter. We provide food when the local Food Bank is closed. We buy them gas for their car so they can get to work, medical appointments, or interviews. We screen as best we can to prevent enabling more poor decisions. In the end we are trying to be part of a solution not the problem. We are a bandage in a situation that often require a higher degree of treatment. But to do nothing is not an option. To express my opinion on the subject is not an attack on the lender but a discussion of how this continues a downward spiral for many people.

The lender could charge a more reasonable rate and still do quite well. But like a patron at a local bar it is just easier to over serve and take the cash. The bar owner does have to depend on regulars to make a living so they have to make choices sometimes. Sometimes they might call a cab or a friend or family member. That is a better choice don't you agree? The same principle applies in money lending. When someone is drowning you don't hand them glass of water and wish them well. Hope you see where I am going with this.

Our country would be better if we were our brothers and sisters keeper to some extent. Not to infringe on freedom but to extend true freedom. If I sound crazy that is part of my point. We no longer care enough for each other to speak up when others are being damaged.

In conclusion who would you rather help you out in a financial problem...the high interest company...or a caring community? We all have choices. The almighty buck is only a tool not a god and a tool is only as good as the craftsman that uses it.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Payday loan company's are not the best in the world but it is a nessisary service... If you have bad credit your life should not stop. Nor should you get the same rate as somone who has great credit. This is how the world works.. I don't do work with company's that dont pay there bills and if i do i charge more a require a massive deposit.

Sorry but the world does not have to revolve on credit...that is a choice not a requirement.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

I made up my mind. I'm pawning both of my cars for a new reef tank! [emoji468]

I will build it for you...oops I guess I am enabling your bad choices...just gave into the business side of me!
Lol...have a great day!

 

[Elder1945]

First of all I guess my point missed the mark. I know this individual at a casual level and do not think badly of him as a person. I do believe as a business owner I am responsible to my customers and community. Not everyone agrees with me on this. I live in a small community and we take care of each other since no one else will take care of us. We believe that we can make a difference in our community and lift each other up.

I guess you missed the part where those same individuals who borrow from him now need assistance to meet their water, utility bills, rent, and auto repairs and now have to resort to community service organizations to keep them and their families warm while paying off impossible bills? The point is I have a heart for people in financial bondage since I have been there. It is not the best practice to continue the downward spiral of individuals who lack the life skills to prevent their own destruction. It is akin to over serving a drunk knowing he is going to drive home because he is too drunk to walk.

By the way in some cases we (our community service organization) have paid off the lender to get people back on their feet again. So in our solution we gave to him without expectation on the behalf of those who could not pay him back. How have we wronged him, his employees, or his customer? We pay for back utility bills to keep them warm in the winter. We provide food when the local Food Bank is closed. We buy them gas for their car so they can get to work, medical appointments, or interviews. We screen as best we can to prevent enabling more poor decisions. In the end we are trying to be part of a solution not the problem. We are a bandage in a situation that often require a higher degree of treatment. But to do nothing is not an option. To express my opinion on the subject is not an attack on the lender but a discussion of how this continues a downward spiral for many people.

The lender could charge a more reasonable rate and still do quite well. But like a patron at a local bar it is just easier to over serve and take the cash. The bar owner does have to depend on regulars to make a living so they have to make choices sometimes. Sometimes they might call a cab or a friend or family member. That is a better choice don't you agree? The same principle applies in money lending. When someone is drowning you don't hand them glass of water and wish them well. Hope you see where I am going with this.

Our country would be better if we were our brothers and sisters keeper to some extent. Not to infringe on freedom but to extend true freedom. If I sound crazy that is part of my point. We no longer care enough for each other to speak up when others are being damaged.

In conclusion who would you rather help you out in a financial problem...the high interest company...or a caring community? We all have choices. The almighty buck is only a tool not a god and a tool is only as good as the craftsman that uses it.

I agree with some of this... I also respect your opinion and honestly wish the world was like this...

Its not though..

Most rent a centers and or high interest loan places do not give loans or rent food or any other necessity of life that I have seen (this is just what I have seen).

They rent and or loan out for flat screen tvs or xbox games or laptops or cell phones all of witch are not a necessity of life. cough fish tanks.....

Are there people out there that need a fair shake at a restart and should stay clear of high interest loans, yes. That said though most if not all of people get into debt for stuff they do not need..

If we as a "community" bail out people who make bad decisions where are the incentives not to make them again...... This is just a perpetual cycle that at some point needs to be broken. What i see now is if you make a bunch of bad decisions its ok we as a "community" will just bail you out.. If you make some good decisions and work hard you are now the "evil" person who drives nice cars and owns things..

I think education plays a huge factor as you have said above but i place personal responsibility extremely high on the list. I think in all high interest high pressure loans are wrong but no one is forced to take them it is a decision they make.

I do thank you for helping people in need as this should be done more but I truly believe I have a valid point.

 

[revhtree]

It's not changing the discussion point, I was answering your question.

Also, I find it slightly offsetting that you find my critique of MD's "good business practice" to be "borderline shameful" when you are a a) staff member and b) "partner member" and MD happens to be a R2R sponsor.

All members, including staff, have the right to their opinion. They are not paid by Marine Depot or R2R. They receive no financial gain in defending any business. Partner members PAY R2R for a special membership so they also have no financial gain in supporting a business.

Don't worry, I fully expected this thread to be brigaded by shills sooner or later.

Please be careful with accusations.

 

[revhtree]

Now back to the thread.

So if your logic about Marine Depot and affirm holds water then shouldn't you be against ALL business that accept Paypal as a form of payment?

When I buy using paypal I am given the option to pay via my paypal account, credit/debit cards, and.....ready for this......Paypal Credit. Better known as Bill Me Later. Only 20% interest.

I would venture to say that you are probably a patron of A LOT of businesses that use Paypal as a payment option for customers.

Via the paypal website...

The comfort buying now and paying over time right from your PayPal wallet has the added benefit of no annual fee. The Annual Percentage Rate (APR) is 19.99% and the Minimum Interest charge is $2.00.

https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/m...-c6S7S5yeVmVdVVh7nVEkaAh4s8P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

[Daniel@R2R]

Amazing how so many people defending business practices like Affirm would never use it themselves nor let their children use it or advise their friends coming into the hobby to use it!

If it's such a great option maybe those defending it the loudest should take advantage of it.

Taking advantage of people, the poor, and the uneducated is an old business. It's not new to millenials or this decade.

MD is a great on line retailer and I've spent tons over the years with them, but I can't say I like the fact that they partnered with Affirm.

Not sure who is defending that has said they will "never" use it, nor do I get how everything a person thinks is viable as an option is something they should automatically use. I think it's great that some restaurants serve tofu...but I won't be ordering any. Thanks anyway. Financing options (like many other things in life) are situation specific. If I don't finance stuff for my aquarium, does that mean I should condemn that practice by anyone who does? I don't think so. That's a bit extreme. I also don't finance cars anymore...should I condemn everyone who does? No. That's based on my own personal finances. If a person wants to use Affirm, no harm in that as long as they make a decision based on their own situation.

Offering credit = "taking advantage of people"...that's a big leap. Remember, there are lots of credit offerings that aren't backed by major credit card companies. At this point, the only things anyone has said that is backed by empirical data (at least as far as I've seen) is that the credit range is 10-30% (typical credit card rates) and they do offer fraud protection (though it was originally assumed by someone that they don't).

My defense is of consumers and businesses to do what they want (within ethical bounds...and this does seem to fall within those bounds).