I am losing most of my corals

BRS

Dom

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Sorry if I missed this, but there doesn't appear to be any discussion about your lighting.

My LPS and Nems thrive, but any SPS in my tank die off. I came to find that my lighting was inadequate for the SPS in my tank.

Now I'm strictly LPS and Nems until my next build.

What lighting do you have and what is your lighting schedule?
 
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lost66

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There was a old man who always had trouble with his saltwater tanks .he had 5 tanks in his basement one day he took a tote and put a large algae turff scubber in it and plumbed it to 3 of his tanks . He has them all hooked up to it now . You now why? I will tell you . He has not lost a coral since. He swears by it now. This is my 3rd attempt at a reef tank the other two I always had problems with you name it I had it. This time started with algae turf scubber . So far so good . 6 month in montiporas ,birdsnest, zoas,mushrooms leathers,all doing well. We will see how things go. Couple more months will try some sticks. This is a true story I found it on you tube . If it works for someone who has been doing it for years .why not give it a try
My understanding turf scrubber is one of the way for nutrition export. I run my sump with refugium, bunch of chaeto. At the beginning of my journey with reef I was not able to sustain chaeto long enough and was considering turf scrubber. I investigated that topic and it looks like there is no advantage to have both of them. Chaeto is way easier and waaaaaayyyyyy less expensive.


Sorry if I missed this, but there doesn't appear to be any discussion about your lighting.

My LPS and Nems thrive, but any SPS in my tank die off. I came to find that my lighting was inadequate for the SPS in my tank.

Now I'm strictly LPS and Nems until my next build.

What lighting do you have and what is your lighting schedule?
My tank is 8 feet long. I have 4 hydra 26hd setup very close what BRS presented. They are on for around 10 hours. I also have 4 t5 to boost blue and increase the coverage.
I wonder how your tank looks like. Can you share some pictures? I have a lot high rocks and I wonder what I can put on top of the rocks when I remove my graveyard. Do you have more than 1 type of anemone? I read somewhere there are only 2 types of anemones compatible with ocellaris clowns but they are quite expensive and I don't know if they survive in my tank and if I won't have any chemical warfare which I won't even detect because of RBTA I have already.
 
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lost66

lost66

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Post your ICP results if you can. Both the salt and RODI.
They are not "recent" but I did that when I noticed first corals dying.

Tank
1627438033832.png


RODI
1627438076902.png
 

vetteguy53081

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.15 is NOT fine and will certainly bleach coral as will too much light or water flow
Are you using Tap water from faucet or RODI water ?
For Dino. . . . Prepare by starting with a water change and blow this stuff loose with a turkey baster and siphon up loose particles.
Turn lights off (at least white and run blue at 10-15%) for 5 days and at night dose 1ml of hydrogen peroxide per 10 gallons for all 5 nights. If you dont have light dependent coral- turn all lights off.
During the day dose 1ml of liquid bacteria (such as bacter 7) per 10 gallons.
Clean filters daily and DO NOT FEED CORAL FOODS OR ADD NOPOX as it is food for dinos.
Day 5,, you can start with blue lights - ramping up and work your white lights up slowly

Dinoflagellates are protists organisms -those that do not fit within the three natural kingdoms: animalia, plantae or fungus- with ability to move with rotating movements. All dinoflagellates have the common feature of having two flagella located at right angles allowing them to perform such rotational movement which makes them easily recognizable (although some species such as the genus symbiodinium they are virtually immobile).
There are about 2.400 species which have a highly variable size ranging from 20 and 300 µm in the most common ones and up to 2 mm in the case of species such as noctiluca. In the marine aquarium species are usual smaller as symbiodinium and Amphidinium, While some like ostreopsis are large and can be seen without a microscope (with good lighting and visual acuity).
The problem arises when conditions in the aquarium break the biological balance and some dinoflagellate species spread uncontrollably, smothering the rest of the aquarium inhabitants. If the dinoflagellate species in question has the ability to produce toxins (usual in ostreopsis, gambierdiscus and prorocentrum to name a few)
The problem often arises when we try to bring cleanliness it to the limit, in order to improve its appearance and color of corals.
They tend to occur suddenly when the aquarium water reaches an extraordinary cleanliness, in which most microorganisms perishes for lack of food. With no other organisms that can stop them, this type of dinoflagellate can multiply so fast that when we realize it's late and we will find an aquarium full of brown and ochre slime suffocating fish and invertebrates. These dinoflagellates possess chloroplasts enabling them to synthesize their own food even under a minimal amount of light. Some species can form cysts called pellicles which allow them to remain in the aquarium for months although we have completely sterilized or kept in complete darkness. Once the light or the right conditions come back, they will reappear and thus problems.
Most of these dinoflagellates have a very curious behavior, typical of pathogens and parasites. With the presence of light they secrete mucus which adhere to any surface, including algae, coral and fish. They spend hours synthesising food and extending vertically in search of the light source (if we turn off the pumps in the aquarium we can see brown filaments grow towards the surface). When the light source disappears and can no longer synthesize food, it begins to diminish to none.
 
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lost66

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.15 is NOT fine and will certainly bleach coral as will too much light or water flow
Are you using Tap water from faucet or RODI water ?
For Dino. . . . Prepare by starting with a water change and blow this stuff loose with a turkey baster and siphon up loose particles.
Turn lights off (at least white and run blue at 10-15%) for 5 days and at night dose 1ml of hydrogen peroxide per 10 gallons for all 5 nights. If you dont have light dependent coral- turn all lights off.
During the day dose 1ml of liquid bacteria (such as bacter 7) per 10 gallons.
Clean filters daily and DO NOT FEED CORAL FOODS OR ADD NOPOX as it is food for dinos.
Day 5,, you can start with blue lights - ramping up and work your white lights up slowly

Dinoflagellates are protists organisms -those that do not fit within the three natural kingdoms: animalia, plantae or fungus- with ability to move with rotating movements. All dinoflagellates have the common feature of having two flagella located at right angles allowing them to perform such rotational movement which makes them easily recognizable (although some species such as the genus symbiodinium they are virtually immobile).
There are about 2.400 species which have a highly variable size ranging from 20 and 300 µm in the most common ones and up to 2 mm in the case of species such as noctiluca. In the marine aquarium species are usual smaller as symbiodinium and Amphidinium, While some like ostreopsis are large and can be seen without a microscope (with good lighting and visual acuity).
The problem arises when conditions in the aquarium break the biological balance and some dinoflagellate species spread uncontrollably, smothering the rest of the aquarium inhabitants. If the dinoflagellate species in question has the ability to produce toxins (usual in ostreopsis, gambierdiscus and prorocentrum to name a few)
The problem often arises when we try to bring cleanliness it to the limit, in order to improve its appearance and color of corals.
They tend to occur suddenly when the aquarium water reaches an extraordinary cleanliness, in which most microorganisms perishes for lack of food. With no other organisms that can stop them, this type of dinoflagellate can multiply so fast that when we realize it's late and we will find an aquarium full of brown and ochre slime suffocating fish and invertebrates. These dinoflagellates possess chloroplasts enabling them to synthesize their own food even under a minimal amount of light. Some species can form cysts called pellicles which allow them to remain in the aquarium for months although we have completely sterilized or kept in complete darkness. Once the light or the right conditions come back, they will reappear and thus problems.
Most of these dinoflagellates have a very curious behavior, typical of pathogens and parasites. With the presence of light they secrete mucus which adhere to any surface, including algae, coral and fish. They spend hours synthesising food and extending vertically in search of the light source (if we turn off the pumps in the aquarium we can see brown filaments grow towards the surface). When the light source disappears and can no longer synthesize food, it begins to diminish to none.
I use only RODI. I followed your directions about dino and nothing helped. Looks like my type of dino lives in the sand, UV and hydroxy peroxide don't have any effect. Believe me, I tried everything from common topics and nothing helped to get rid of it completely. I am at the point that my dino is only on the sand and it doesn't cover everything, My sand looks just "dirty" and I thought maybe it is dirty but when I checked sample on the microscope again, dino is still present. That's why I don't change water anymore because when I thought I won the battle and changed water couple of times dino stroked back and my sand was full of it. So I add silica from time to time, keep phosphate and nitrate elevated and dose phyto daily. Looks those things keep dino on a acceptable level where it is only on the sand and doesn't bother me that much.
I am reading correctly, you are saying too much flow is bad for SPS? this is the first time I read about that. Many sources say water flow on extreme levels like x150 is good. I invested in strong powerheads and I keep them on a minimum because even on like 50% fish can't swim freely.
As for the light, I was keeping my schedule for almost a year without changing much so all my corals adjusted. I even measured my tank and I have decent coverage.
I was checking light coverage before extinction.
1627439692350.png

1627439715200.png

1627439780668.png

1627439798622.png


That was around 8 months with dino war so I changed light schedule to be more blue.

I am very disappointed, my journey progressed and I thought I have everything figured out, I finally keep my tank "stable" and all parameters finally don't swing. I think it is mostly because MB7 I have been dosing for like 6 months and phyto for like 4 months. From what I read on this forum 0.15 phosphate is not that high and it definitely shouldn't be a reason that most of my SPS die.
 

vetteguy53081

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I use only RODI. I followed your directions about dino and nothing helped. Looks like my type of dino lives in the sand, UV and hydroxy peroxide don't have any effect. Believe me, I tried everything from common topics and nothing helped to get rid of it completely. I am at the point that my dino is only on the sand and it doesn't cover everything, My sand looks just "dirty" and I thought maybe it is dirty but when I checked sample on the microscope again, dino is still present. That's why I don't change water anymore because when I thought I won the battle and changed water couple of times dino stroked back and my sand was full of it. So I add silica from time to time, keep phosphate and nitrate elevated and dose phyto daily. Looks those things keep dino on a acceptable level where it is only on the sand and doesn't bother me that much.
I am reading correctly, you are saying too much flow is bad for SPS? this is the first time I read about that. Many sources say water flow on extreme levels like x150 is good. I invested in strong powerheads and I keep them on a minimum because even on like 50% fish can't swim freely.
As for the light, I was keeping my schedule for almost a year without changing much so all my corals adjusted. I even measured my tank and I have decent coverage.
I was checking light coverage before extinction.
1627439692350.png

1627439715200.png

1627439780668.png

1627439798622.png


That was around 8 months with dino war so I changed light schedule to be more blue.

I am very disappointed, my journey progressed and I thought I have everything figured out, I finally keep my tank "stable" and all parameters finally don't swing. I think it is mostly because MB7 I have been dosing for like 6 months and phyto for like 4 months. From what I read on this forum 0.15 phosphate is not that high and it definitely shouldn't be a reason that most of my SPS die.
Great pics- That NOT dino but rather Cyano
Cyano blooms typically start when water nutrient concentrations go haywire. Just like when you eat too much sugar and your waistline starts to bloom, the same happens in your tank when concentrations of phosphate, nitrate and other organic compounds are too high.
Some of the most common causes include:
- Protein skimmer which fills water with tiny air bubbles. As bubbles form from the reaction chamber, dissolved organic compound molecules stick to them. Foam forms at the surface of the water and is then transferred to a collection cup, where it rests as skimmate
- Overstocking / overfeeding, your aquarium with nutrients is often the culprit of a cyano bloom
- Adding live rock that isn’t completely cured which acts like a breeding ground for red slime algae
- If you don’t change your water with enough frequency, you’ll soon have a brightly colored red slime algae bloom. Regular water changes dilute nutrients that feed cyanobacteria and keeps your tank beautifully clear
- Using a water source with nitrates or phosphates is like rolling out the welcome mat for cyano. Tap water is an example
- Inadequate water flow, or movement, is a leading cause of cyano blooms. Slow moving water combined with excess dissolved nutrients is a recipe for pervasive red slime algae development

I recommend to reduce white light intensity or even turn them off for 5-7 days. Add liquid bacteria daily for a week during the day at 1.5ml per 10 gallons. Add Hydrogen peroxide at night at 1ml per 10 gallons. Add a pouch of chemipure Elite which will balance phos and nitrate and keep them in check.

After the week, add a few snails such as cerith, margarita, astrea and nassarius plus 6-8 blue leg hermits to take control.
 

hometown9

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They are not "recent" but I did that when I noticed first corals dying.

Tank
1627438033832.png


RODI
1627438076902.png
Those trace elements are quite low. Iodine in particular needs to be much higher particularly for SPS. I had a similar situation to you and once i increased iodine it dramatically improved my hard corals.
 

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Ampidinium are toxic, and they've been able to eat almost everything that has been thrown at them to include vibrio. People try to treat Dinos as a one size fits all problem, but even within the same genus some are easy to kill and some will go as far as burrowing into coralline to survive for years. In nature you can always find vibrio with Dinos, and vibrio is a coral killer.

The abundances of A. carterae and P. micans were not lowered by V. parahaemolyticus, whereas that of C. polykrikodes was lowered considerably. The harmful effect depended on bacterial concentration and incubation time. Most C. polykrikoides cells died after 1 hour incubation when the V. parahaemolyticus concentration was 1.4×107 cells ml-1, while cells died within 2 days of incubation when the bacterial concentration was 1.5×106 cells ml-1. With increasing V. parahaemolyticus concentration, ingestion rates of P. micans, P. minimum, and A. carterae on the prey increased, whereas that on C. polykrikoides decreased

 

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Refugium is all most the same if your refugium is big enough. I used the return pipes in my sump for two screens fron hobby lobby an extention cord and 100 watt leds. 20 bucks . It is big enough for your tank. Mine is only120 gallon . Now if you buy one yes they are expensive. But you don't have to worry about your algae melting. And it is not controlling your nutrients. They are high. Mine are undetectable. And everything is happy. To each his own. Peace out.
 
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lost66

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Great pics- That NOT dino but rather Cyano
Microscope says something different. But what I read from multiple sources dino comes with cyano in pair in many cases.
Add liquid bacteria daily for a week during the day at 1.5ml per 10 gallons. Add Hydrogen peroxide at night at 1ml per 10 gallons
This is what I have been doing. I am adding MB7 for a while now. I was dosing it daily for a month or so - no difference. So now I am adding once a week. hydrogen peroxide doesn't work in my case. Been doing that for 2 months. Not all type of dino is in the water column.
I followed your instructions from other threads but none of them helped me.
Mine are undetectable
Many of us start their tank as almost sterile environment. Sand from the bag, cured rocks by bleach. Initial "cycling" may bring ugly phase or not. I never had a problem with green algae. Maybe because of tangs or maybe because of low nutrients. Mine was also not undetectable for a while. This is risky and brings a plague like dino. I prefer to keep tank more rich.
If keeping tank with elevated nutrients is a deal breaker for SPS than this is it, no more SPS for me.
 

Garf

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Have you tried dosing iron? All photosynthetic stuff needs it and it seems you have none. From what I remember from a long time ago, Dino’s May have a special mechanism where they can liberate it from other things, so they are ok, other things not ok.
 
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Hello reefing buddy. I have a 75 gallon mixed, I have 300+ snails mostly small and some larger and they keep the sand clean. At night my glass is covered with snails and when the lights start to ramp up they will go back to the substrate and rocks. I got rid of all my hermits because they would climb up my branching Monti and break off branches.

I am saying this because I am struggling with the same issues, I tried lowering and raising nutrients over several months, GHA also getting long in some places on the rocks which I have to remove by hand because snails will not touch it if too long. So I raised my magnesium level to 1500 and the algaes cyano and GHA is going away, GHA is starting to turn white and easy to blow off rocks and I use a polishing filter to help clear the water.

Someone on this site experimented with their tanks raising mag to 1500 with no problems, I am also having good results with no problems myself. Someone says that the elevated mag will harm snails but mine are fine so far. My system is going on 6 years and upgraded from 46 bowfront to 75 last October and is what is causing these issues I believe. I was also loosing my Monti, and now is getting very fluffy looking growing faster now. This is what I am observing, all other corals also seem to be improving. Good luck with your reef. Check out ReefCleaners.com they have the best assortment of snails.
 

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I agree with @vetteguy53081 that it is cyano. I get it when I don't rise the frozen food before feeding it to the fish. Laziness sets in and I regret it when cyano pops up. I use chemiclean several times with no ill effects. I just follow the directions. My tank is a 210 gal mixed with SPS. Never had trouble with corals.
 
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PICK the Most Tested & Least Tested Parameters of your Tank (Pick 2)

  • Calcium (most)

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    Votes: 493 69.8%
  • Magnesium (most)

    Votes: 5 0.7%
  • Phosphate (most)

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    Votes: 14 2.0%
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