I am starting to miss Apex integration

[tc760]

I don't know if I am the only one but I am in the beginnings of a new 180G tank and looking at upgrading a lot of gear. Its disappointing that I cant automate things as easy as I did with my old gear. I see almost all new things have their own app and non Apex supported. I love the new gear I am buying but it sucks that I have to either go into multiple apps to control each device or just have the Apex shut off power.

This is all first world problems for sure but many of these apps are crap and each one is adding a new type of difficulty as well as new security holes in our networks/tanks. When my phone/tablet updates software my device controls become susceptible to failures. All of theses vendors are new to the IOT development world and its obvious they dont have quality UX (User Experience) teams or funding for real time updates for Android/IOS builds. I know personally the MyAI app and Reef beat app constantly crash or wont except changes on my phone. I am glad for now Ecotech is supporting both Apex and Mobius but that probably wont last for long.

I just find it funny that Automation in our tanks is becoming more and more popular but the manufactures are all going different directions for control. Apex is becoming a probe and power controller with less value. I probably wont be spending $800 on a new Apex when mine dies. Its fine as long as there are alternative means for universal control. Its just a shame that for many technology thats meant to make things easier is going to complicate things more. I haven't looked into API support for different vendors but if most of them support it then we can all build our own managers but that will not be as easy as having an "Aquarium Controller" actually controls my aquarium devices.

It might be time for a COVID-19 project. See what vendors support API (help us all if its SNMP only). Dust off an old Raspberry Pi or Arduino, some breadboards and start conceptualizing a homemade control.

 

[Joeg]

I agree that it is frustrating and had to consider how many different things did I want to interact with.

I eventually decided to use the Apex EL that I already had for the "nut's & bolts" like monitoring ph, controlling temp, scheduling lighting, powering the skimmer etc. I decided to keep the Apex because it saved me some money and has proven to be reliable and works with my less popular choice of Kessil and T5's. I also liked the idea of being able to add a Trident and do AWC with a DOS pump. It basically covered a lot of what I wanted to accomplish.

I then decided to splurge a little on something newer for circulation and bought a Hydros wave engine. I picked up a pair of 330 gyres to run vertically and an icecap 2k gyre on the back wall. It may be overkill for a 60 cube (I'll find out this weekend when I set up the Hydros) but I liked how those pump choices also meant that they could be powered by the Wave Engine and I could remove some power supplies because they are direct drive. The Hydros would have one more direct drive outlet that I could use for my return but I'm going to keep that one on it's own because if there's a leak or overflow the last thing I want to do is hope that I can connect via bluetooth or an app to shut it off. As a nice bonus there's a cable I can run between the Hydros and the Apex so if I hit a feed mode on the apex it can suspend the Hydros.

I went into this with the understanding that only wanting 2 interfaces was limiting my hardware choices but I think it's a good blend for what I'm hoping to achieve. The other way to look at it would be that even thought you might end up with 3-4 interfaces you really won't have to mess with all of them very often. Once the lights are dialed in I'm guessing a lot of people are smart and don't fiddle with them much.

Good luck!

 

[TheHarold]

I don't know if I am the only one but I am in the beginnings of a new 180G tank and looking at upgrading a lot of gear. Its disappointing that I cant automate things as easy as I did with my old gear. I see almost all new things have their own app and non Apex supported. I love the new gear I am buying but it sucks that I have to either go into multiple apps to control each device or just have the Apex shut off power.

This is all first world problems for sure but many of these apps are crap and each one is adding a new type of difficulty as well as new security holes in our networks/tanks. When my phone/tablet updates software my device controls become susceptible to failures. All of theses vendors are new to the IOT development world and its obvious they dont have quality UX (User Experience) teams or funding for real time updates for Android/IOS builds. I know personally the MyAI app and Reef beat app constantly crash or wont except changes on my phone. I am glad for now Ecotech is supporting both Apex and Mobius but that probably wont last for long.

I just find it funny that Automation in our tanks is becoming more and more popular but the manufactures are all going different directions for control. Apex is becoming a probe and power controller with less value. I probably wont be spending $800 on a new Apex when mine dies. Its fine as long as there are alternative means for universal control. Its just a shame that for many technology thats meant to make things easier is going to complicate things more. I haven't looked into API support for different vendors but if most of them support it then we can all build our own managers but that will not be as easy as having an "Aquarium Controller" actually controls my aquarium devices.

It might be time for a COVID-19 project. See what vendors support API (help us all if its SNMP only). Dust off an old Raspberry Pi or Arduino, some breadboards and start conceptualizing a homemade control.

These days, more and more products are being brought into the Apex ecosystem- not less. Is it possible you are just not shopping for the correct compatible equipment? Neptune Systems does have an API available for third parties to use.

For example if you wanted gyres compatible with apex, you should not buy the Red Sea ones and use Reef Beat app. The less expensive Icecap versions are the same thing, with an Apex compatible controller.

Reef Octopus VarioS lineup of pumps and skimmers have 0-10v control
Icecap IC2C Controller (For gyre style pumps) and WaveEngine can integrate via 0-10v
Tunze products have 0-10v control
Vortechs can be controlled via WXM (and Radions up to G4)
Kessil is rumored to be working on better integration than their previous 0-10v (with their new wifi dongle)
Sicce and Maxspect Wifi based controllers are rumored to be integrated in the future

 

[Miller535]

I share your frustration.

But Ecotech is already phasing neptune out. For this reason Neptune is no longer going to be making the WXM module. And I believe the newest Vortech's no longer will work on the WXM module, only on mobius.

 

[Miller535]

These days, more and more products are being brought into the Apex ecosystem- not less. Is it possible you are just not shopping for the correct compatible equipment? Neptune Systems does have an API available for third parties to use.

For example if you wanted gyres compatible with apex, you should not buy the Red Sea ones and use Reef Beat app. The less expensive Icecap versions are the same thing, with a compatible controller.

Reef Octopus VarioS lineup of pumps and skimmers have 0-10v control
Icecap IC2C Controller (For gyre style pumps) and WaveEngine can integrate via 0-10v
Tunze products have 0-10v control
Vortechs can be controlled via WXM (and Radions up to G4)
Kessil is rumored to be working on better integration than their previous 0-10v (with their new wifi dongle)
Sicce and Maxspect Wifi based controllers are rumored to be integrated in the future

I actually spoke to Kessil customer service, and the lady I spoke to said that in the near future we would be able to control the kessil lights through the dongle. She said they already had it working.


But the OP is right less and less companies are being apex compatible and going in their own direction. I even heard Terrance acknowledge this on his podcast.

 

[tc760]

I agree most of the time its simple tasks that need manipulation (Feed,WC,Maint) and most settings stay constant so I wouldnt need to tweak things much. Being a tech guy its sucks that we are loosing ease of control of our devices. Its sort of like how people are building out awesome control panels and display sumps with nice plumbing. I want the same for my applications. Just another way of making my hobby better for me.

 

[tc760]

I share your frustration.

But Ecotech is already phasing neptune out. For this reason Neptune is no longer going to be making the WXM module. And I believe the newest Vortech's no longer will work on the WXM module, only on mobius.

I spoke with Ecotech and they new Vortechs still support the WXM for now with only Firmware changes. But thats just a courteous transition step for now. I expect it to go away soon.

 

[Miller535]

A worry I have is if each brand creates it's own wireless network, having a bunch of them in a small area, they are likely to give each other some errors cross talking each other. This would not happen if they were all in the same echo system.

 

[Miller535]

I spoke with Ecotech and they new Vortechs still support the WXM for now with only Firmware changes. But thats just a courteous transition step for now. I expect it to go away soon.

Yeah I heard that, but you have to "roll back" the driver to make it work. That's pretty crappy. And I have heard is going to go away.

 

[tc760]

A worry I have is if each brand creates it's own wireless network, having a bunch of them in a small area, they are likely to give each other some errors cross talking each other. This would not happen if they were all in the same echo system.

Depending on their implementation that should easily be avoided. For closer proximity Bluetooth make the best sense but wifi has a lot more capability and range. 5ghz band has a lot of channels and shouldnt have the issues that the 2.4ghz band had in the past.

 

[KarlsReef]

Currently Bluetooth LE isn't controllable enough as you need to be in the vacinity for connection, so there wouldn't be any control or monitoring without a hub or controller that is wifi or hard wired. While Bluetooth LE has its benefits for certain applications I'd like to see some form of way to access from further than its local vacinity. It's a shame the companies can't all work together on a standard form of communication that works to benefit the hobbyist not the bank balance of a owner, board or hedge fund. Listening to Terence earlier this year there are more companies getting onboard with Apex integration, so if you have an Apex that's good news. I can on one hand understand Ecotech wanting to have their own system linking all equipment n moving towards some form of "controller" wether that's software or hardware that remains to be seen at the moment but also they are pushing away Apex users at a certain level in the hope they follow them to their systems. I just want the best for us end users and improvements and innovations in the hobby.

 

[KarlsReef]

Yeah I heard that, but you have to "roll back" the driver to make it work. That's pretty crappy. And I have heard is going to go away.

There have also been number out people reporting errors when "rolling back" causing a bricked unit which sucks big time, this could have been totally avoided by leaving the wifi still active but I feel it was a bit of posturing between companies.

 

[User1]

I spoke with Ecotech and they new Vortechs still support the WXM for now with only Firmware changes. But thats just a courteous transition step for now. I expect it to go away soon.

It will be interesting to watch the net result of this decision. I think the business side forgot to see how big the market is of the two primary controllers be it GHL and Neptune. Trying to pave your own path to a new ecosystem isn't going to reward one with more customers.

 

[shred5]

I think there are several reasons for this.
A stand alone controller sometimes can do allot more than the Apex. Apex cant be everything to everyone, really no controller can be.
Also when Neptune decided to release their own equipment instead of just being a controller company they became a competitor to allot of the manufacturers.

 

[User1]

Also when Neptune decided to release their own equipment instead of just being a controller company they became a competitor to allot of the manufacturers.

I doubt that is really a factor here. The other manufactures have different designs, configurations, form factors, etc. More of them plus the knock offs coming in from over seas. Neptune isn't going to get caught up in that game. They offered a few items not much different than what GHL does.

I think most hobbyists have a general agreement in that there are too many dongles, separate apps, cables, and other unique to product things that are making day to day use more difficult. Not only day to day but not vacation/holiday/travel tank sitter friendly. And I'm not even factoring in the associated cable / fire risk by this (not high granted, but it is there due to water).

It is a lot like the PC industry in the 80's with all of the different peripherals and lack of standards to integrate. I don't know really I guess

 

[Miller535]

Ultimately the reefing industry has become no different then any other area of electronics or even entertainment like streaming, every company wants their own ecosystem and service. For some reason they think creating one will give them a leg up and give them a share of the pie. On one hand it's good, there's no monopoly going on and it encourages companies to be creative and make a good product or fear being left in the dust. But on the other hand it is annoying having so many apps. I have to go into multiple apps just to do feed mode for everything in my tank. I don't know, I kind of think pandora's box has been opened and there's no going back now.

 

[Miller535]

Currently Bluetooth LE isn't controllable enough as you need to be in the vacinity for connection, so there wouldn't be any control or monitoring without a hub or controller that is wifi or hard wired. While Bluetooth LE has its benefits for certain applications I'd like to see some form of way to access from further than its local vacinity. It's a shame the companies can't all work together on a standard form of communication that works to benefit the hobbyist not the bank balance of a owner, board or hedge fund. Listening to Terence earlier this year there are more companies getting onboard with Apex integration, so if you have an Apex that's good news. I can on one hand understand Ecotech wanting to have their own system linking all equipment n moving towards some form of "controller" wether that's software or hardware that remains to be seen at the moment but also they are pushing away Apex users at a certain level in the hope they follow them to their systems. I just want the best for us end users and improvements and innovations in the hobby.

I have heard Terrance say this, and I find it to be absolute B.S. Look at all of the most popular brands and products over the last few years, they have more and more went away like Ecotec. Even if you look at the apex compatible stuff on Neptune's website, most of what is on there are really old products no one uses any more, or products like ecotec that are being phased out, or products from brands that just aren't that popular. Terrance is claiming this imo because he's a salesman, and if he acknowledges that companies are leaving the Neptune ecosystem it is bad for neptunes sales. His official title is VP, Sales and Marketing, enough said. lol. I am not bashing Neptune, I love the apex and wish everything was integrated, but it is what it is.

 

[jasper9]

A bit of an older thread (sorry) but on this topic, has anyone done any work to try to unify triggering feed mode across platforms? Does the Apex even expose feed mode in their api? I thought it was just metrics that they make available but I could be wrong.