I got a rant to put out there, so fair warning but I'm open to hearing opinions

[Cell]

Most "proven" sellers do not maintain mother colonies of everything they sell. That just isn't feasible. They get new corals in all the time and pick and choose which ones they want to grow out long term and which to chop up and sell quickly.

 

[Cell]

If the smaller vendor sold the coral at the asking price, they made a sale at their desired price and should be happy. If another bigger vendor can take that same piece and sell it for more money, well that's OK too. It's a free market. Often when you start a new business and have built up no customer base you sell things at a discount or perhaps even a loss to drum up business. As sales increase, you can increase the price to balance out supply/demand and ensure profit.

 

[srobertb]

Most "proven" sellers do not maintain mother colonies of everything they sell. That just isn't feasible. They get new corals in all the time and pick and choose which ones they want to grow out long term and which to chop up and sell quickly.

Agree. I have seen the shipments of rock wholesellers get in. The question is- are they breaking up a zoa rock, naming them, and selling them or breaking them up and selling them as “Jason Fox Gobstoppers” or some well known coral.

Furthermore, there are lots of (well, some) boutique coral shops that find, grow, and sell very specific corals that they personally handpick. They aren’t churning out boxes of gray-market rock from Indonesia. If it is one of those sellers, I would personally want to know.

 

[srobertb]

If the smaller vendor sold the coral at the asking price, they made a sale at their desired price and should be happy. If another bigger vendor can take that same piece and sell it for more money, well that's OK too. It's a free market. Often when you start a new business and have built up no customer base you sell things at a discount or perhaps even a loss to drum up business. As sales increase, you can increase the price to balance out supply/demand and ensure profit.

of course. Buy low, sell high. Typically we see wholesale in this hobby. I buy 10 Scoly’s in bulk at $50/piece and sell them for $100/piece. No issues. I don’t want to buy, house, or travel with 10 scolys so I’m happy to pay someone else to.

We need to know: Are they just giving it a fancy name on the spot or misrepresenting its provenance? Op doesn’t say. Are they giving a shaggy dog story about how their dad gave them this coral that he found during Vietnam off the coast of a small island that was destroyed in a volcano eruption and they’ve had it for 30 years and this is the first time they fragged it? If I ask, will they say, “I don’t know much about it, I just bought it from that guy over there?” Which would be just fine. I got there late, someone else saw an opportunity, I can make an informed decision.

I always ask about coral (where’d it come from, how long have you had it, lights, parameters, etc).

It may be “technically” ok to just make all that up but I imagine most of us wouldn’t buy from that individual. I certainly wouldn’t.

 

[rtparty]

My 2 cents...i actually see nothing wrong with this behavior. As OP wrote: The market pays what it can but I have a firm belief that scalping via arbitrage shouldn't be allowed.

It would appear OP knows about free market theory but doesnt want it to work effectively. If seller A sells it for too little to the point that Seller B can buy from Seller A and Sell it to Seller C for a mark up..that is definitionally free market theory surrounding inefficient markets. In fact, these intermediaries are a big reason that many of us can get products. In our hobby, distriubtors are a big part of our equation and they are bringing products to those that want and liquidity to the original seller in an inefficient market.

Dont get me wrong...its the same as having a garage sale just to have the pawn shops and ebay sellers haggle you down over your stuff and it annoys me...but it doesnt mean it is wrong. As a seller, you make the decision if you are willing to sell at a price. As a buyer, you make the decision if you are willing to buy at a price. The mechanism outside of your decision for anything other than a definite need (food, energy, etc) is a moot point.

I came to say this. Verbatim actually. Had it all typed out when I realized it had already been said.

okay I made that up. Mine was much less eloquent

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

Yeah ... this is not new. There are a lot of trades/deals/sales that go on behind the scene at every show before most hobbyist even enter.

This right here.. this is commonplace before the doors even open to the public.

My 2 cents...i actually see nothing wrong with this behavior. As OP wrote: The market pays what it can but I have a firm belief that scalping via arbitrage shouldn't be allowed.

It would appear OP knows about free market theory but doesnt want it to work effectively. If seller A sells it for too little to the point that Seller B can buy from Seller A and Sell it to Seller C for a mark up..that is definitionally free market theory surrounding inefficient markets. In fact, these intermediaries are a big reason that many of us can get products. In our hobby, distriubtors are a big part of our equation and they are bringing products to those that want and liquidity to the original seller in an inefficient market.

Dont get me wrong...its the same as having a garage sale just to have the pawn shops and ebay sellers haggle you down over your stuff and it annoys me...but it doesnt mean it is wrong. As a seller, you make the decision if you are willing to sell at a price. As a buyer, you make the decision if you are willing to buy at a price. The mechanism outside of your decision for anything other than a definite need (food, energy, etc) is a moot point.

Fully agreed.

 

[SteveMM62Reef]

Wait till they start “Patenting,” their “Designer,” Corals.

 

[albano]

I always ask about coral (where’d it come from, how long have you had it, lights, parameters, etc).

It may be “technically” ok to just make all that up but I imagine most of us wouldn’t buy from that individual. I certainly wouldn’t.

But how would you know that they were making it up?

 

[AKG]

Seems to be driving some people up a wall that I didn't mention the vendor, so I will.

It's BSA Corals, and if they want to explain their practice, then fine, but BSA corals is not the only vendor doing this. I just get purturbed that they charge the prices and you guys pay them under a precedent that they are growing it themselves or something and it's not make very clear as to the provenance of these corals. -- that's all. I don't mind if BSA wants to name something, but we as buyers are just as much the problem for assuming that rarity is anything more than marketing, like how diamonds are considered rare. Yes, some corals ARE rare, but you as a hobbyist that's your own opinion to make.

 

[Ryebreadiest]

I’m honestly far less concerned about the price flipping than I am about introducing another set of changing water parameters and an unknown quarantine process while also implying that it’s a coral they have been growing. Maybe I’m naive but if I see a WWC Laser Blade or TSA Rainbow Incinerator, I’m going to assume those companies have been cultivating that frag for at least some time.

 

[Dburr1014]

If the practice of a big name going to the little guy to just buy a coral because he knows he can sell it for double at the same show goes on, I would like to know.
I most likely won't be giving the big name my money.

If that happens after the show or happens at random times, I don't care. For me, it shouldn't happen at the shows.

Shows, for me, are where big names and little guys can stand side by side and offer what they have. Let the buyer pick where they give there money.

1) little guy might not have the proper QT the big name has.
2) little guy probably cheaper than big name.
3) buyer should know where it came from. If the big seller buys it from little guy at the show, the buyer may never know that it wasn't properly QTed.

I know this happens all the time in every aspect of life.
I just feel it shouldn't happen at a show where I paid to get in to see what everyone has, big or small. Let me decide who to give money to.

Having said all that, this hobby is getting very expensive. Most of the blame falls on us. Fancy names are driving the prices.
Common coral now has a fancy name, up the price 10 fold.

 

[AKG]

Could you just name the other vendors who didn't do this?

Named them. BSA Corals.

You know there's another way to look at this, right?

As long as the vendor in question isn't trying to haggle down the LFS, the LFS is still generating sales. Leveraging a brand while at the same time helping the booth opposite isn't exactly a terrible thing. I suppose it would depend on the markup to see just how much it hurts the customer in the end, but to be fair, as long as you're not buying from the greedy big name, who actually is losing?

I think the implications are that vendors are offering a level of provenance and hence tank stability/frag quality based on brand name.

My 2 cents...i actually see nothing wrong with this behavior. As OP wrote: The market pays what it can but I have a firm belief that scalping via arbitrage shouldn't be allowed.

It would appear OP knows about free market theory but doesnt want it to work effectively. If seller A sells it for too little to the point that Seller B can buy from Seller A and Sell it to Seller C for a mark up..that is definitionally free market theory surrounding inefficient markets. In fact, these intermediaries are a big reason that many of us can get products. In our hobby, distriubtors are a big part of our equation and they are bringing products to those that want and liquidity to the original seller in an inefficient market.

Dont get me wrong...its the same as having a garage sale just to have the pawn shops and ebay sellers haggle you down over your stuff and it annoys me...but it doesnt mean it is wrong. As a seller, you make the decision if you are willing to sell at a price. As a buyer, you make the decision if you are willing to buy at a price. The mechanism outside of your decision for anything other than a definite need (food, energy, etc) is a moot point.

I agree and hopefully this enables buyers to be more picky about vendors if they want to charge $600 for a frag of something. Ultimately I didn't see anything wrong with the free market concept, a vendor as made their money, so what? But there's a inherent trust placed in a coral based on brand name that I think is just a bit of a stretched truth when you show up with two 10g tanks to reef stock and claim you are vending your own stuff.

Congradulations! Perhaps the best post ever on R2R right there. You just did what our public education system won't do. Teach free market capitalism, and the responsability of the end consumer.

I love the way people in the hobby always try to blame the vendor, when in fact the real cause of the problem is the buyers bad behavior. Until we stop buying corals just because their names makes us feel better about how much we spend, this will only continue to get worse.

I think your final statement was good and I agree with it but I think you both had missed the point. I'm not blaming the vendor for marking things up in a free market. I'm blaming the vendor for using their brand name to create a guise of warranty or trust in a free market.

If Subaru began rebranding Toyotas, and you bought them, only to learn that all of Subaru's marketing about building a product you can trust was just a lie and only as good as a Subaru with an markup, wouldn't you me a little upset? It's not wrong to mark up a Subaru as a Subaru. But marking up a Subaru by telling someone it's a Toyota is fraud and an abuse of customer trust.

Buying something at a discount and selling it for a profit is how business works.

I agree, but there's a abuse of your brand when you are not treating the corals at shows like the rest of your brand supposedly gets treated and ultimately while everyone does it, showing up with 2/3 10g tanks to reefstock as BSA is shady. I didn't say it's not genius, it is genius, but don't do it when you have some crazy brand behind you that people pay good money for and trust. This is how you destroy people's trust in your brand and what you do behind closed doors is your own business, but lying to customers about provenance or making things up for a flip and putting your brand on the table is a huge disservice to customer trust and it's already a struggle to get people to trust vendors as is.

 

[AKG]

I have no qualms about vendors exchanging pieces and vendors saying, "I actually found it down at another booth"

That's fine, and that's all that needs to happen. If that's the case, I can go ask them where the coral came from and if they get annoyed then they can bring it up to the event organizers.

 

[AKG]

Obviously there is grey area about how people feel about the reality of free market, but I also believe it's only fair to be open about your corals origins. There is no shame in telling a customer you found the amazing coral at another booth, even if you won't name names, but ultimately I feel like as a vendor it's your due diligence to inspect your frags or establish stability before resale and many will argue this is impossible to do in the time frame of the event and if you can't explain how it's spent it's life, how can you convey truthful information to your consumers?

It's obviously more muddy than "vendor bad" or "consumer bad" but hopefully we can discuss this enough to establish a concept of what makes a trustworthy vendor and the questions people would be asking in order to establish some transparency. I could have bought 10 10g tanks and a booth for $1k and played arbiter the whole event but I'm also not able to sell my frags for $600++ on a golden trust platter for, "the rarest corals" .

There's a point where your brand does more than sell corals and I think for those margins the common consumer expectation based on the number of pms I received asking who it was is an indication that indeed people are concerned they are potentially being taken advantage of/ lied to in this case.

 

[GatorGreg]

You can all say what you want about free market and all that to make yourselves feel better. At the end of the day the behavior described is extremely greasy and no one should do business with these people. They should be shunned from the hobby (banned from trade shows etc.) There are a lot of people exploiting the hobby right now and treating it like a gold rush. The people here defending the vendor in the name of the “free market” won’t be so enthusiastic when they’re eventually priced out of the hobby. Which will happen.

I don’t give a rats you know what about free market. Anyone selling a single Zoa for 300 dollars should be beaten relentlessly out behind the dumpster. I don’t care what it looks like or is called.
A lot (not all but a large percentage) of the people doing this greasy stuff and having these crazy names and outrageous prices do have something in common. You figure it out though

 

[flashsmith]

There's no such thing as a "designer" coral. There's no all knowing guru out there cross breeding to create a new species. It just doesn't work that way. If you think otherwise I'll sell you everything I own at designer prices. I can name it anything you like just bring your money.

 

[GatorGreg]

There's no such thing as a "designer" coral. There's no all knowing guru out there cross breeding to create a new species. It just doesn't work that way. If you think otherwise I'll sell you everything I own at designer prices. I can name it anything you like just bring your money.

BINGO

 

[StatelineReefer]

There's no such thing as a "designer" coral. There's no all knowing guru out there cross breeding to create a new species. It just doesn't work that way. If you think otherwise I'll sell you everything I own at designer prices. I can name it anything you like just bring your money.

There are a couple, and it can work that way, let's just say that it's not as quick and easy.

But there ARE tank BRED acropora.

 

[rtparty]

You can all say what you want about free market and all that to make yourselves feel better. At the end of the day the behavior described is extremely greasy and no one should do business with these people. They should be shunned from the hobby. There are a lot of people exploiting the hobby right now and treating it like a gold rush. The people here defending the vendor in the name of the “free market” won’t be so enthusiastic when they’re eventually priced out of the hobby. Which will happen.

I don’t give a rats you know what about free market. Anyone selling a single Zoa for 300 dollars should be beaten relentlessly out behind the dumpster. I don’t care what it looks like or is called.
A lot of the people doing this greasy stuff and having these crazy names and outrageous prices do have something in common. You figure it out though

And anyone thinking this way should be beat behind a dumpster. Goes both ways here.

Don’t like the price, don’t buy. Hobby too expensive? Find a different one or find a way to make this one work in your budget. There are loads of $5 and $10 corals out there.

It is not our job or place to judge how others spend their money. Let alone should any of us advocate for violence to fix the solution.

 

[pennied]

I love that everyone loves collecting corals, but I saw something at Reefstock that really, really bothered me. I specific high end coral vendor was buying stuff off of other vendors in order to fleece the crowds by making up names and abusing their reputation as a high end seller in order to make money and proportedly sell things as "rare" or "unique" just because you have a really reputable brand behind you.

This is not okay and I hope you know who you are if you are reading this.

I will not be purchasing from you again and upon asking a local LFS this is not the first year they have done this so I can only believe this behavior is happening at other shows as well.

For the record, it was not Top Shelf Aquatics. They had a good selection and I got some more dragon tongue. It WAS
another nationally recognized brand.

Buying a coral at a show is one thing, but to use your reputation and good brand name to screw over hobbyists is another. I'm pretty upset about it but I just won't ever give them my money.

Not only that but they had a habit of trying to tell customers including myself, "awwww man there's some rare stuff in there" only for me to see them run up to a booth I was at later on and quickly tell a vendor "I'll take these three scolies just charge my card thanks" only to see that they later gave them weird names I'd never heard of.

Not only that, I saw them buy up a hammer coral colony labelled as hammer coral colony and proceed to then take it over, give the name of jack o lantern hammer or something, and charge basically double what the original LFS wanted.


Look, I know you want to make money, everyone there does.

But if you want to sell coral, how about checking your corals in the plane like everyone else instead of ripping off communities of hobbyists around the country.

End of rant.

This just rubbed me the wrong way. The market pays what it can but I have a firm belief that scalping via arbitrage shouldn't be allowed. When a hobbyist asks about your corals, I expect to buy your corals, not some flatworm infested p.o.s. that you bought from the maricultured 7 for $100 area and claimed was a special coral.

Anyone who wants to know the vendor can privately pm me and come to their own conclusions, but I believe it is my duty to spread this awareness as this vendor charges a very, very healthy markup and I can confidently say that this was not consistent with their public image, at all.

Thanks for taking the time to read this, if it was any other vendor I probably wouldn't be so upset about it but I think this is just plain fraud.

I should also note, I have photographic evidence of other vendors complaining about this specific vendor at past events, and lack of truthful provenance of the corals and how they were obtained.

It wwc

Everyone knows this lol