I messed up- killed most of my sps. (Need advice)

[costaricareef]

I use a combination of three: i) skimmer, ii) Refugium with Chaeto and iii) Rollermat. I am very slowly tuning all three to get where I want to every time I add fish or change feeding. Right now and am at 20 nitrates and 0.12 phosphates with the skimmer on 24/7 dry, the rollermat on for 18 hours a day and the fuge on for 20 hours a day. I feel I am reaching capacity in fish and/or feeding since all I have left to "tune" is 4 more hours in the fuge and 6 more hours in the rollermat. The chaeto grows well, I export a ton every 14 days.

 

[ApoIsland]

@fryman

I chose not to read thru your entire post bc I've been reefing since 2007 and around 2012 .... I SWORE OFF all SPS Acros.

SPS just take too much micro-husbandry skills to continue to be successful.

You Slack for one week and BAM, major issues with no forgiveness, no making it right again.

I encourage you to pursue LPS, zoas, rics, Acans, mushrooms, palys.... you'll be happier, I am!

This is the path I chose as well. While I do get a slight tinge of envy when I go to someones house and see a tank filled with Acros, it quickly fades when I get a look at all the equipment and dosing they need to run their tank and they start talking about the multiple crashes in the past.

Mostly LPS and zoas with just a few super easy birdsnest, stylo, digi, and monti's mixed in for the only sps. And really didn't have any sps for the first few years. Only the hard core aquarium guys know my tank is not high quality.

Although sadly i'm kind of starting to screw up with the zoas at the moment....

 

[TCoach]

Yes I agree. I over-reacted with the GFO and am pretty sure that caused the coral loss. It was a newbie mistake, I should know better.

We’ve all done that to some extent or another. When I run GFO on my tank (92 Corner), I do 1/4 cup of regular GFO to start and go from there. So with HGFO, I’d start with no more than 1/8 of a cup max.

 

[gstaiano95]

This is gonna be something of an "airing my dirty laundry" post. I'm not happy with myself but rather than avoid embarassment I'm gonna attempt to learn from my mistakes & maybe serve as a warning to fellow reefers. Also hoping to get advice/bounce ideas to fix the mess I made.


History (trying to be brief):
I started a new 100gal mixed reef earlier this year. It's not my first and I took it very slow with this one (at first). Dates are approx, my memory is not perfect.

• Added water in March (dry rock with bottle bacteria)
• Added light in May (half tank only). Also added a few easy soft coral: Xenia, palys, gsp, nepthia, and zoas.
• Added some CuC when algae started to show. Relatively mild ugly period as a result.
• In July or Aug I added a pair of clowns and my first 2 tester sps- a montipora digitata and a stylophora. I also added some inverts (2xfire shrimp, crabs, 2xcleaner shrimp, urchin). Everything fine so far with no deaths.

I had stable params so in Sep I added more coral and turned on the other half of the tank lighting. Today the right side rocks are still a slightly different color than the left, which is interesting. For SPS I added more digis, several diff types of birdsnest, and one acro. All were started as tiny 1-2 in frags. The sps grew ok but soft coral (palythoa in particar) was growing fast in this tank.

So everything was fine until Oct. First mistake I think was stocking fish too fast. In Oct I added 13 more fish: yellow tang, 4x anthias, pair of firefish, pair of wrasse, pair of gobies and pair of royal gramma. I didn't do it all at once of course but in retrospect I think this is too much in a month. The female royal gramma died within a week of adding (unknown cause). All other fish are good, eat well, with no aggression problems (except maybe a bit of domestic abuse from female clown on male but they've been that way for a year). They were purchased qt'ed (TSM and marine collectors) except the clowns and tang which I had awhile in another tank.

I did not get any ammonia spike, but nutrients started to climb. Up till then I was ~5ppm nitrate, 0.03 ppm phosphate. I dosed neonitro/neophos to keep them detectable. But after adding so many fish nitrates slowly climbed to ~20ppm and phos hit 0.15ppm. The tank still looked ok but I started to get worried about stability. Pics for reference:

I started dosing vinegar, increasing by +15ml per week. 6 weeks later I was dosing 90ml vinegar but nitrate was still rising (slowly). Then a couple weeks ago phosphate hit 0.3ppm and I freaked a bit. I've never seen it so high. So I added 1/3 cup "high capacity" gfo from BRS to my reactor. Stupid thing to do.

I tested phos a few days later and it was 0.03ppm. It dropped way faster than I expected and I was worried but coral looked fine at first. Then a few days later some sps looked stressed, and in 24 hrs many were skeletons. I lost nearly all the birdsnest and my first stylo. They had doubled in size in a few months but then I screw up and suddenly dead. *sigh*

The digis are still alive as is the acro (somehow). They do not look stressed atm. Soft coral also looks ok but my alk consumption has plummeted, and pH is totally out of whack. I was dosing 2liters saturated kalk to maintain alkalinity but now I only need 1liter. I no longer see a normal day/night swing for pH either (not much of one anyway) and my daytime peak went from 8.3 to 8.0/8.1.

So, now what? I am looking for advice to get back on track. I removed the gfo but kept vinegar daily dose steady. Nitrates are still climbing (about to hit 30ppm) and I dose 90ml vinegar/ day. This seems like alot and not in line with my previous experience using vinegar dosing. Usually after this long nitrate takes a dive. I don't understand why it's not doing so.

Questions:

• Should I stop vinegar, try something else like nopox, or just stay the course? Maybe it just needs more time?
• Is 90ml vinegar an ok carbon dose for 100 gallons?
• Should I switch from carbon dosing to macro refugium? Is it ok to do both?

I'm thinking a low risk change I can make is to add filter socks or floss. I didn't need to before but now I have a nutrient issue. I have a refugium but it isn't doing much. I don't think I had enough flow or light. Also I'm using red ogo macroalgae instead of chaeto (wanted fresh veggies for my tang). The red ogo actually has been growing but it's clearly not doing the job. I have some chaeto I could add but this will take awhile to grow in. I added a pump to the fuge (flow was pretty stagnant) and am looking at better lighting.

Any suggestions? TY in advance.

First thing you always want to do is avoid panicking and begin making drastic changes. Best thing to do instead of messing with tank chemistry is water changes, water changes, water changes in conjunction with a detoxifier like Seachem Prime, but be sure to increase surface agitation at this time because it depletes oxygen. Using your discretion, and depending on the toxicity of your water perform water changes to dilute the nutrients from within the tank. In this case I'd recommend 50% water changes daily because of your high nutrients. I say this because anything more may be too stressful on the fish and inhabitants. In regard to carbon dosing, the only form of carbon dosing I'd recommend is solid forms in which there is little chance of human error i.e. 'All In One' Bio Pellets, Sulfur Denitrators, or Zeovit. The biggest issue with using carbon dosing such as vinegar is that every tank is different and it is hard to gauge how much to dose. By using solid carbon dosing (assuming you follow instructions) there is much less room for error. If you chose to go the solid carbon dosing route please be sure to do extensive research on any said form. For example, adding too many bio pellets to a reactor can shock the system which can be fatal. If you chose the 'all in one' bio pellet route which also tackles phosphates to a degree (which I find sufficient) you must use an effective skimmer in conjunction. Good luck!

 

[Chrisv.]

+1 for water changes and adding some real live rock. Even just a few pieces. Sounds like you already know that slow and steady wins the race. No corals thrive with rapid fluctuations. The sps may be the most vocal.

 

[ScottB]

Thanks for sharing your humbling story. Most of us have been through some version(s) of it.

I am a bit surprised that that level of carbon dosing was ineffective at reducing nitrates. Leads me to question the effectiveness of your skimmer. It should be filling with dark sludge every 2 days and the neck should be cleaned as often.

I don't recall reading how much rock you have in total. I don't see much in the display. I have 3 Marine Pure large blocks and a lot of rock in my 139G system and keep 1-2 of nitrates. My PO4 will build over time but that is easy to manage with lanthanum chloride.

What is your water change habit?

 

[fryman]

Thanks for sharing your humbling story. Most of us have been through some version(s) of it.

I am a bit surprised that that level of carbon dosing was ineffective at reducing nitrates. Leads me to question the effectiveness of your skimmer. It should be filling with dark sludge every 2 days and the neck should be cleaned as often.

I don't recall reading how much rock you have in total. I don't see much in the display. I have 3 Marine Pure large blocks and a lot of rock in my 139G system and keep 1-2 of nitrates. My PO4 will build over time but that is easy to manage with lanthanum chloride.

What is your water change habit?

It surprises me as well and I'm not sure the cause. The skimmer seems to produce well and the cup fills every 2-3 days. I do not clean the neck every time I empty the cup. It does get pretty dirty so I clean it maybe once a month.

I have a second tank below the first, not in tbe pic but it's the same size with about the same amount of rock. I think it's maybe 75 lbs rock total? Not really sure but I bought 150 lbs and still have at least half in a brute trash can. It's a minimal rockscape but I also have 1 gallon of marinepure blocks in the sump plus some extra generic ceramic bioballs. Going off the marine pure marketing material I'm using alot more than recommended. That may not be a good thing really but I don't think available surface area is the problem.

I do small 3gal water changes a couple times a week.

I'm not really certain if the phos drop is the cause of my losses, it's just suspect because it's the only thing I changed. I keep a pretty close eye on phosphate and it did not bottom out, but did drop from ~100 ppb to ~10 ppb in a few days (hanna ulr phosphorus checker). I've gotten zero readings before but that was when nitrate was also very low. Everything seemed fine so maybe the combo of high nitrate/low phos caused it? I don't know.

 

[ScottB]

It surprises me as well and I'm not sure the cause. The skimmer seems to produce well and the cup fills every 2-3 days. I do not clean the neck every time I empty the cup. It does get pretty dirty so I clean it maybe once a month.

I have a second tank below the first, not in tbe pic but it's the same size with about the same amount of rock. I think it's maybe 75 lbs rock total? Not really sure but I bought 150 lbs and still have at least half in a brute trash can. It's a minimal rockscape but I also have 1 gallon of marinepure blocks in the sump plus some extra generic ceramic bioballs. Going off the marine pure marketing material I'm using alot more than recommended. That may not be a good thing really but I don't think available surface area is the problem.

I do small 3gal water changes a couple times a week.

I'm not really certain if the phos drop is the cause of my losses, it's just suspect because it's the only thing I changed. I keep a pretty close eye on phosphate and it did not bottom out, but did drop from ~100 ppb to ~10 ppb in a few days (hanna ulr phosphorus checker). I've gotten zero readings before but that was when nitrate was also very low. Everything seemed fine so maybe the combo of high nitrate/low phos caused it? I don't know.

I believe you are correct in assuming the coral stress came from the quick/large drop in PO4. Kinda surprised you didn't see a cyano outbreak after a swing like that.

 

[ApoIsland]

I believe you are correct in assuming the coral stress came from the quick/large drop in PO4. Kinda surprised you didn't see a cyano outbreak after a swing like that.

Would you mind detailing the reason for cyano outbreak when PO4 rapidly drops? Once every 2 or 3 years I do a huge PO4 drop going from about .2 to what I imagine is near zero, and always get a green cyano outbreak. I guess now I know why....

Never had any coral losses though, in fact they always look better after the large water change, so not sure that is the cause of the OP's losses. Not that I keep anything difficult but it is a lot of the same sps the OP mentioned.

 

[i_am_mclovin]

If you don't have a way to take the nitrates out by super heavy skimming, fuge, or whatever, then some sand and real live rock will help you more than you know. I don't know why you chose to be bare bottom, but unless it is for aesthetics, there are easier ways to run tanks.

The issue with fuges is that they are kinda self fulfilling... the slow down as nitrates and phosphates get higher right when a tank needs them the most. They are best used in combo with other export methods. Chaeto does seem to have the maximum export and use up more N and P than other kinds, but I have only tried a few dozen.

IMO, the only way to be really successful with heavy organic carbon dosing is an acute method like Zeo, but those tanks are usually super mature, dialed in and are using the method to fine tune and not to do macro adjustments. More times than not, heavy carbon dosing is not going to work... you are trying to be the exception and not the rule, IMO.

I am not saying that what you are doing is not possible, but it puts most of the onus on you and allows for not many ways for the tank to reach equilibrium.

I think JDA hit the nail on the head. I would add one very successful way of exporting nutrients is an algae turf scrubber. I've been using them for years and they are a very easy and super effective way of controlling nutrients. Also, in my experience, dry rock tanks need at least a year (or more) before they can support any significant SPS.

 

[jda]

Keeping N or P near zero, like in the ocean, does not have to bring things like cyano, diatoms, etc. It is how it gets there that matters. If you use organic carbon to get there, that can fuel some matting bacteria that now the N and P are too low to growth limit (think kill or hold back). I keep my N and P low naturally and I have no massive outbreaks of cyano or dinos - I do get little patches from time to time but they disappear as fast as the emerge and are no issue.

Not all skimmers produce like others. If yours is killing it, then the neck would need cleaned. Here is one of my skimmers after a few weeks:

 

[ScottB]

Would you mind detailing the reason for cyano outbreak when PO4 rapidly drops? Once every 2 or 3 years I do a huge PO4 drop going from about .2 to what I imagine is near zero, and always get a green cyano outbreak. I guess now I know why....

Never had any coral losses though, in fact they always look better after the large water change, so not sure that is the cause of the OP's losses. Not that I keep anything difficult but it is a lot of the same sps the OP mentioned.

Just speaking from experience. Can also happen if you take nitrates way down quickly and leave elevated PO4.

In a nutrient stable biome, cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates are very marginal surface competitors. They are always around, but are outcompeted by bacterial film, film algae, coralline, etc etc. When we deplete a given nutrient, those competitors get weak or die, so somebody has to fill that void and scavenge it all up. Cyano are perfect for this. If you don't like cyano and prefer dinoflagellates, just hit the tank with Chemiclean (or comparable) and keep nutrients low. Works almost every time.

When you do large water changes, you are removing nitrate but not much PO4. It remains stored in the rock/sand and will slowly leach back out.

 

[NowGlazeIT]

Dang that’s too bad things were going well till the fish started poopin up the place. I think your vinegar dose is high for the tank volume. I dose 30ml in my 120 but I also use bio pellets and a hefty skimmer to keep nitrates at 10-15.
I think your nitrates are climbing because your bottoming out your phosphates. carbon dosing requires both nitrate and phosphates to work properly.

 

[Billys_reef]

I think the only mistake you made was that you added too much gfo thus bottoming out your PO4. I would've used maybe 1/2tbsp and then ramp up from there. Carbon dosing is a fine idea to lower your nutrients as it has worked very well in my tanks. If nutrients keep increasing, then either feed less or slowly ramp up your carbon dosing. I would test your NO3 and PO4 weekly to fine tune and make adjustments to your carbon dosing/feeding/gfo levels. You also do not want to keep one of your levels too low because for carbon dosing to work, both NO3 and PO4 need to be at similar levels. If one bottoms out, then the other will not be reduced. IMO, I think right now you should just stop using your GFO, feed less, and monitor your nutrients weekly. Adjust your carbon dosing/feeding if necessary but only do this once a week and in very small increments.

 

[ApoIsland]

Just speaking from experience. Can also happen if you take nitrates way down quickly and leave elevated PO4.

In a nutrient stable biome, cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates are very marginal surface competitors. They are always around, but are outcompeted by bacterial film, film algae, coralline, etc etc. When we deplete a given nutrient, those competitors get weak or die, so somebody has to fill that void and scavenge it all up. Cyano are perfect for this. If you don't like cyano and prefer dinoflagellates, just hit the tank with Chemiclean (or comparable) and keep nutrients low. Works almost every time.

When you do large water changes, you are removing nitrate but not much PO4. It remains stored in the rock/sand and will slowly leach back out.

Ahh that makes sense thank you! So my PO4 most likely never really drops but my nitrates do have a severe drop which cause the outbreak. I rarely ever test but when I do it seems nitrates are 20-40 range and probably do go down close to zero after the large change.

 

[fryman]

Forgot to mention dosing vinegar will change the ph some, as it is a weak acid.
You might try diy nopox, which is 500ml vinegar, 375ml vodka, 125ml part rodi.

I think this is part of the puzzle. Or at least a partial explanation for my pH shift.

When I started dosing vinegar I saturated it with calcium hydroxide (kalkwasser) to avoid impact on pH. However over time I refilled with just straight vinegar. Also my vinegar dose was increased slowly up to 90ml/day. Turns out adding 90ml vinegar, even dosed slowly over daylight hours, has a significant impact on pH. I shut off dosing for a day and pH peaked at 8.2.

I don't think this explains the situation wholly, but maybe part of it.

I'm thinking I might try the diy nopox idea, thanks!

 

[Pistondog]

I think this is part of the puzzle. Or at least a partial explanation for my pH shift.

When I started dosing vinegar I saturated it with calcium hydroxide (kalkwasser) to avoid impact on pH. However over time I refilled with just straight vinegar. Also my vinegar dose was increased slowly up to 90ml/day. Turns out adding 90ml vinegar, even dosed slowly over daylight hours, has a significant impact on pH. I shut off dosing for a day and pH peaked at 8.2.

I don't think this explains the situation wholly, but maybe part of it.

I'm thinking I might try the diy nopox idea, thanks!

Or straight vodka.
Off topic, what do you use for a microscope? I'm looking to get something to verify phyto cultures and Id other pests, which will likely be larger. Tia.

 

[TigNJaxx]

I recommend a Refugium with chaeto and stop all these external chemicals that try to manage NO3 & PO4. It’s cheap, natural, and I find very effective. Mine Keeps my overstocked 90g PO4 around .08 and NO3 around 5. Built my Refugium out of egg crate and have never purchased any additional chaeto since starting a year and half ago. Find that when my chaeto is growing, my corals are thriving.

Off topic a bit. But, I like how you used the white tile to contain the chaeto. I've been wondering how I could prevent mine from possibly flowing over the section it's in and into the next section and/or return pump. Great information all around. Thanks!