Ich, and how to stop it before it begins

Discussion in 'Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis' started by mopsinc, Jan 2, 2018.

  1. mopsinc

    mopsinc Member

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    Ok so this is all hypothetical, but could I technically put the fish in a QT and treat them with CP and leave them in there for 4 weeks and leave everything else in the display tank and let the disease starve until it dies off?
     

  2. Brew12

    Brew12 Electrical Gru R2R Supporter Reef Squad Leader R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    Yup, that would be the better way to do it. You are more likely to be able to maintain the correct treatment levels in a tank without rock and sand. It is much easier.
     
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  3. mopsinc

    mopsinc Member

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    Could moving the tangs into this new (and smaller) tank stress them out too much? What size should I get for the number of fish I have. 2 small clowns both 2” or less. A fire fish. A yellow clown goby that’s 1” 2 yellow tangs about 3 1/2” big. A purple tang about 4 1/2” big and a powder that’s about 6”
     
  4. Fishfinder

    Fishfinder Valuable Member

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    Yes that would be the best option.
     
  5. Fishfinder

    Fishfinder Valuable Member

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    Ugh that's a lot of fish, maybe a 40 or 50
     
  6. mopsinc

    mopsinc Member

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    I know it is. That’s why this is so difficult haha. I may separate them, put the tangs in one tank and the smaller fish in another
     
  7. Fishfinder

    Fishfinder Valuable Member

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    It looks by your fish list that all of them can handle CP. I would split up the tangs. At least the purple and yellows.
     
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  8. Brew12

    Brew12 Electrical Gru R2R Supporter Reef Squad Leader R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    I would go with at least a 40 if not a 55. If you do separate them put the yellows in one tank and the purple and powder blue in the other.
     
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  9. Fishfinder

    Fishfinder Valuable Member

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    Maybe the powder with yellows and the purple with the other fish
     
  10. Dogtown

    Dogtown Active Member

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    If you move the fish to a CP treated qt, you need to leave your display tank fish free for 72 days. With this approach you are not treating the tank so you need more than 4 weeks for the ick to die off in your display tank.
     
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  11. Fishfinder

    Fishfinder Valuable Member

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    Yes I did 76 days and it worked like a charm
     
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  12. mopsinc

    mopsinc Member

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    Got it. However if it’s velvet, doesn’t velvet live longer inside fish free systems because they can get energy from light too
     
  13. Fishfinder

    Fishfinder Valuable Member

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    76 days will kill it. It worked for me
     
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  14. Brew12

    Brew12 Electrical Gru R2R Supporter Reef Squad Leader R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    It does live longer in the free swimming form. Ich will die out in a day or two where velvet can swim for over 2 weeks. The basis for the timeline is how long it can stay in the cyst form while reproducing. The longest observed cyst period for Ich was 72 days. Then another 4 days to allow it to hatch and starve. That gets us to 76 days.
    I'd have to go look again but I believe the recommendation for Velvet is 42 days. It spends much less time in the cyst stage but longer in the starve out stage.
     
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  15. 4FordFamily

    4FordFamily Tang, Angel, & Wrasse Addict Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    Agree. 76 days is best practice.
     
  16. Dogtown

    Dogtown Active Member

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    Agreed
     
  17. CanadianReefer

    CanadianReefer Active Member

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    Out of curiosity, what is your nitrate level? From what I understand, you added many fish after having a tank set up for a week or so, am I correct? Have you checked your ammonia level recently?

    I understand that at this point, ich management may all you're able to do.
    That is a lot of fish to add to a tank that may not have actually been cycled (an ammonia reading of 0 means nothing if the nitrates are also 0 and even if it was cycled that's a big bioload all at once - it could cause a mini cycle).

    At this point, making sure that the water is clean will be vital. Check you levels for ammonia and nitrate everyday. Do water changes if they are needed. Dirty water with any trace of ammonia or high levels of nitrate will cause stress and stress absolutely does increase risk of your animals not pulling through.

    Buy high grade frozen food and soak it in selcon. Feed nori. The garlic thing isn't really helpful. Keep them plump and healthy but do not overfeed the tank. Testing will help you know how the feedings are affecting your chemistry and you can judge how much to feed from this.

    You may also consider rehoming some of the tangs. You have purchased many for such a small space. Yellow tangs grow slowly, but my purple tang exploded in size very quickly. Based on the growth of mine, he'd have outgrown a 90g in 6 months or so. Also powder blues are extraordinarily susceptible to ich, so it might not be a good choice for a tank that has ich present. I'm not trying to be the tang police- I'm simply saying that taking out the tangs that grow too quickly and that are highly susceptible to ich will reduce the stress on the tank overall and may help you have a better chance of keeping the rest alive.

    If you do go the QT route, then 2 QTs are better than one so you can split the tangs up, as people have mentioned. If you go this way, you need to stay dedicated in the future - every coral, rock, fish, invert etc that you add later down the road also needs to be QT'd for 76 days or you risk reintroducing the ich.

    Anyway, good luck with whatever you decide.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
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  18. mopsinc

    mopsinc Member

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    The tank had cycled. It had diatom algae growing (a lot) and I had a week between the purchases of fish as well. I used many forms of quick starters for the tank and even still waited a week for it to cycle. It could be possible now with the new fish the cycle was thrown a little off but I’m not sure. I’ll let you know when I check.
    I know people say tangs can be aggressive toward each other and tangs should be in large tanks. The yellows can live the rest of their life in the tank. I know the powder will eventually need to be moved and I know they are very fragile fish. The people at my LFS said that the hardest part of keeping the powder is getting it home and happy in your tank for the first several days. I’d say at first the yellow tangs at least where stressed when I first put them in the tank, but now everyone seems quite happy, so for now I think everything is ok other then the ich/velvet. I believe I’ll try a QT since I do have some older tanks lying around
     
  19. CanadianReefer

    CanadianReefer Active Member

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    There's a lot of hype around the quick start stuff. I use it myself to speed up a cycle - but I've never had a tank cycle in less than a month even with using these products. Having a diatom bloom doesn't mean that the tank is ready for a lot of fish all at once. It's really indicative of nothing. You'd mentioned using 1 piece of live rock and the rest was (dry rock?), correct? People typically cure dry rock before adding it to an active tank, for instance. This process takes about 6 weeks before that rock is live and ready to start acting as a filter in your reef system. Cycled water? Water doesn't really speed up the cycle since it filters nothing. Really, it just added dirty water in your tank.

    Your bioload needs to catch up. This means that the filtration method you're using (rock and sand) need to continue to build beneficial bacteria to address any load increases. It takes time - quick start or not. Most people start off with one or two small fish once the tank has cycled, then a month later, you can double that and add a few more fish etc., all while building up more and more bacteria. If you overload the system, it can crash even if the tank was cycled.

    Stress doesn't necessarily have to come from other fish - it can come from the environment as well, meaning that It can be caused from water that isn't pristine as well.

    If this is the advice your LFS gave you (put in a bottle of quick start and add 10 fish a week later) I'd suggest not listening to them anymore and seeking the advice of this community. There are some very experienced reefers here who can offer you sound advice and coming to us is a step towards learning more about the hobby. We don't want to put you on the defensive - we've all made choices when we were newer reefers and were learning the hobby that were naive.

    I'm concerned about the QT idea. Don't get me wrong - I'm not against it - I am concerned that you don't have media that you can use that will provide proper filtration. When I'm setting up a QT, for instance, I use pieces of marine pure from my sump to provide an instantly cycled QT. Since your tank is new, you won't have this unless you have an older tank that is still up and running (??). Do you know any reefers with established tanks that you could borrow media from? Even if you have to ask the LFS for something that has been in their system, I'd suggest this. Since you're treating these tanks eventually with copper or CP, you don't have to be concerned that the media carries ich. Personally I'd suggest copper (it shouldn't be an issue with the type of fish you have). Cupramine is what I use - tangs do exceptionally well with it. If you select cupramine, add the dirty media, put a half dose of copper as per instructions, let it sit for a few days to reduce contaminants from the dirty media, add the fish, keep it at a half dose for 2 more days so your fish get acclimated, then bring it up to a full dose.

    You can't monitor ammonia while using copper (It screws up the readings and they look sky high) save perhaps a seachem ammonia patch that helps a bit, so it's important to have a well establish media present. Otherwise you'll have sick fish swimming in ammonia and it's a recipe for disaster.
     
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  20. Bug235

    Bug235 Active Member

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    Hi, feed your tangs 2 to 3 times a day and seaweed once a day. Fat fish are healthy! Low stress so no fighting among tangs, good luck. I use Fishkeeper, it worked on my purple tang, I don't believe in these ich cures but this thing worked for my purple tang after having ich for two weeks but was eating fine. It was sold to me by a LFS which is not my primary, with a money back guarantee so I did it and I couldn't believe what I saw, no ich on the purple guy. I told my favorite LFS and he has carried it for two years now and sells out all the time. It's some type of immune booster, I use it in my reef when ever adding a fish. If your fish has ich bad and not eating forget it this stuff won't work, nothing does!

    [​IMG]
     
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