Ich emergency!! Help with medication please!!!!
- Thread starter Jonathan blackwood
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Hardy species (ex. clownfish) and fish with thick mucous coats (exs. wrasses, mandarins) can sometimes survive velvet, although not always. Using an herbal remedy probably aids with this, as it allows time for the fish's natural immune system to build up resistance. However, these survivors may still act as "carriers" capable of infecting other (non-immune) fish.
It's important to note that the above only represents a small minority. IME; The majority of fish die anywhere from 3-7 days after first exposure to velvet dinospores. It can take as little as 12-24 hours with delicate species or fish with compromised immune systems.
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Jonathan blackwood
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I have very good surface agitation! Like almost splashing the water out lol and very good circulation as well. That was my first thought .
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Jonathan blackwood
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I've maintained the directed copper level as posted prior. And when I do a wc, I recheck and then add if need be. And now that you mention velvet?? How do I treat for that? Because I am pretty sure it's ich due to few spots that appeared and now are gone due to QT treatment. And it's been about 2 weeks in QT.
Are you adding copper to the clean water prior to adding it to your tank? Or adding water and then dosing the tank after?
Velvet is extremely opportunistic and isn't effected by copper once attached to it's fish host. It might only take a short lull in the copper level to allow the free-swimmer to attach to its host which keeps the lifecycle going :/
You really want the copper to stay at therapeutic levels constantly so as not to give it a chance to infect a host. It's recommended to treat the water prior to adding it to the tank, to eliminate even the smallest opportunity...
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Jonathan blackwood
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I dose after I add the fresh water . And if velvet has already attached and started it's course... does that mean the copper won't do anything and I will loose the fish ?
No, it just means the fish will have to last long enough for the parasite to drop-off again. If the fish gets very bad and looks to be in trouble (heavy breathing, obviously distressed) you can try a fresh water dip followed by rally bath to give immediate relief. I would only do this if you think it's really needed at this point.
Also, soaking food in vita-chem and/or selcon to help boost it's immune system until the copper can do its job.
I agree with @ngoodermuth 100%. Add copper to any replacement water before pouring it into your QT. A single velvet tomont contains around 200 dinospores, free swimmers capable of reinfecting fish. If just 1 dinospore is active in the water and copper drops below therapeutic (for even just a second), odds are that tomont will latch onto your fish and velvet's lifecycle continues.
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Jonathan blackwood
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So latest update !!! All fish are still alive and in QT! And in the meanwhile, I've been adding coral and redid my aquascape for the last time 
lol I'm finally happy with how the rock sits and how much room there is for fish and coral. What do you guys think ?
lol I'm finally happy with how the rock sits and how much room there is for fish and coral. What do you guys think ?
@Jonathan blackwood It looks good!
This is my first time posting so please bear with me. I have a 40g breeder that has been up for a about 3 years now, but was moved a year ago last May. Your remark about the clown fish and wrasse surviving is making me wonder.
A couple of months ago I lost several fish (Male & female Lyretail Anthias, Yellow Goby, Black Cap Basslet) all died within 2-3 weeks. I attributed it to bullying from a female Whip Fin Fairy Wrasse that got too big for the tank and very aggressive and noticeably started bullying the others. But I am not 100% sure that was the cause of death for them.
The first casualty was the male Lyretail who tried to hang on for days struggling badly. He was visibly hurt or sick. I saw some damage on its sides but wasn't sure if it was from the bully or a disease or rubbing. Finally he disappeared into the rocks and I guess became crab food. Then one by one the others just disappeared too. The Basslet was the next biggest and last seen.
As I alluded to my clown fish and 6-line Wrasse were the only survivors. Of course my ammonia and other parameters all got out of whack and after several weeks and several water changes I got them back to where they should be.
I've been wondering if they might have had ick or velvet (although like I said I never noticed any spots or slime on them). So now that my numbers are good again, everything is healthy, soft corals are thriving, and now I'm thinking of adding more fish. So I'm setting up a QT tank for the first time but I'm wondering if while the clown and wrasse survived (and looking great btw) but if they might be disease carriers? I'd hate to go through the QT process only to introduce the new arrivals into a disease that might carried by the others. Would it be a good idea to QT and treat the clown and wrasse too, even though they aren't showing symptoms? They seem so happy, I'd hate to put them through that if unnecessary. Thanks for any feedback.
stevieduk
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just put a cheap Damsel fish in and see if it gets infected, if it doesnt you ready to go
If you suspect that the clownfish and wrasse might be carrying ich, but resistant, treating them might not be a bad idea - but you'd want to ensure that there are no ich tomonts encysted in your tank. To do that, you'd need to run the tank "fallow" - that is, to keep it empty of fish (corals and inverts are fine, but the clock re-starts if you add any new ones) for 76 days. (The longest measured time - admittedly rare - for a tomont to release its little hunters is 72 days. A 76 day fallow period would allow the last tomont to release and all of its theronts (the hunters) to die of starvation.)
That might not be a bad idea in any case, as both clownfish and six-line wrasses can be unreasonably territorial, and removing them from the tank would allow you to introduce more peaceful fish in their absence.
~Bruce
That might not be a bad idea in any case, as both clownfish and six-line wrasses can be unreasonably territorial, and removing them from the tank would allow you to introduce more peaceful fish in their absence.
~Bruce
A freshwater black molly would be a better choice because:
- It has no immunity whatsoever to SW diseases and won't introduce a new disease into the aquarium.
- Ich/velvet will easily show on it.
- Cheaper & easier to catch.
schooncw
Well-Known Member
Any new Herbtana reviews out there? I added a female bluethroat trigger last week and noticed a bit of ich on her last night. Everyone-including her-is fat and happy but when I was picking up a few cleaner shrimp today, Herbtana was recommended.
Never used it myself, but looking online, I'd be surprised if it did anything beyond what you could achieve with a good diet and a bit of UV or equivalent sterilisation method...
The product doesn't give ingredients (always a giveaway) but states the following:
Microbe-Lift Herbtana is a unique herbal expellant that provides safe control of parasitic skin flukes (gyrodactylus), gill flukes (dactylogyrus), ich (ichthyophthirius multifillis), oodinum, costia (ichthyobodo necater), chilonella and trichodina
NOTE: no mention of marine ich (cryptcaryon irritans) or marine velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum).
Herbtana causes the removal or dropping of parasites from their host. During treatment, parasites are unable to return to the host and starve. While Microbe-Lift Herbtana does not directly kill parasites, it is ultimately responsible for parasite death.
NOTE: the phrase 'does not directly kill parasites' concerns me...
Under dosage instructions we get:
This will act as an immune system stimulant and destressant.
NOTE: Again, not killing anything.
Further on:
Microbe-Lift Herbtana supports the fish's immune system, driving off the excess parasites
And:
In most cases, aquarium fish diseases are caused by poor living conditions such as overcrowding, poor water quality or an improper biotope. To prevent reoccurrence, examine the underlying cause of the problem. Quarantine new fish for at least four weeks
More:
When the water quality is poor, the immune system of the fish cannot be enhanced by Microbe-Lift Herbtana or Microbe-Lift Artemiss. Ammonia and nitrite should not be above 0.4ppm and the pH must be on a level suitable for the particular species of fish.
And finally, in the Q&A bit:
Q. If Microbe-Lift Herbtana and Microbe-Lift Artemiss do not kill nitrifying bacteria in the filter, how are they still effective against pathogenic bacteria?
A. Microbe-Lift Herbtana and Microbe-Lift Artemiss are not biocides. They are natural immune system stimulants. As such, when either product is used, no nitrifying bacteria populations are affected in the water or filtration system.
In a nutshell... this product will not kill ich. If your goal is to do that, this won't work. I cannot comment on it's ability to boost the immune system of fish, I haven't used nor studied it, however I would suggest that it wouldn't do anything that good quality water, a stress free environment and proper nutrition will do.
4FordFamily
Tang, Angel, and Wrasse Nerd!
This is VERY important and something I NEVER did-- and I had to re-treat my fish several times. I also stuck my arm from tank to tank, including a known ich management tank at the time, and shared nets all out of ignorance -- should have been common sense to me but it wasn't!
Empress
Valuable Member
I'm just thinking out loud and don't really expect an answer to this one but, how does the dinospore find a host so quickly? For one dinospore in one second find one fish in, let's say, a 10 gallon tank....that's pretty quick. Can Dino's see? Or do they smell the fish host! How tiny are these things anyway? Why can't we see them? Really I'm just scratching my head. [emoji854]
4FordFamily
Tang, Angel, and Wrasse Nerd!
Not sure how they seek them out-- could be heat or slime they seek -- but because of how many there are after one completing it's life cycle (hundreds) it's a big chance.
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