Ich free tanks

[Tylermacdonald15]

I was wondering is it is possible to have a ich free tank. I have never quarantined any of my fish until now. A few months ago I added a blue throat trigger to my system and he must have caused stress in the tank or brought in ich. I unfortunately lost the trigger, my achilles tang and one clownfish. All the other fish had ich as well but I was able to quickly set up a quarantine tank and save all the others. So if I quarantine all the fish with copper and leave the DT empty for 6-8 weeks is it still possible for my fish to get ich again when I put them back in the main tank. I have heard that ich is always in a system but I disagree with that.What do you guys think? Have any of you been successful at maintaining a tank without ever seeing ich?

 

[jcdeng]

ok, if you take your fishes out of the DT and leave it fishless for 10weeks, then you DT is basically ich free. And if you treat all your fish with copper during that 10 week period then your fishes are ich free, now if you put ich free fish into an ich free tank (without adding anything else like coral, pods, macro, water from another tank, or use equipment that has been used in a not ich free tank) THEN, yes, you have an ich free system.

 

[Tylermacdonald15]

ok, if you take your fishes out of the DT and leave it fishless for 10weeks, then you DT is basically ich free. And if you treat all your fish with copper during that 10 week period then your fishes are ich free, now if you put ich free fish into an ich free tank (without adding anything else like coral, pods, macro, water from another tank, or use equipment that has been used in a not ich free tank) THEN, yes, you have an ich free system.

That's exactly what I though. But that's not what everyone told me so I wanted to get some more opinions.


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[rlman41299]

having an ich free tank is possible!!!!!
i am in the process of doing it right now since i had an ich out break last month. so far YOU are in the right direction for leaving the tank fishless for about 6-10 weeks at the same time treat the fish in quarantine for ich. it is also a good time for a prazipro treatment too.
ich so much pain the ***, first it took a toll on my scott's wrasse and killed it then i noticed the ich outbreak and needed to do drastic measure by collecting all fish and quarantine them. so far i have lost trio flame wrasse, pair scott's fairy wrasse, a hooded wrasse, trio laboutei wrasse, pair of rhomboid wrasse. the ich outbreak and the stress these fish went through was too much.
at least i am starting anew and will keep the fish tank fish less for 8 weeks and treat my quarantine of remaining fish then start over again. just because of a single fish i introduce without using a quarantine just ONCE, only ONCE i didn't use a quarantine. :cry:

 

[Tylermacdonald15]

having an ich free tank is possible!!!!!
i am in the process of doing it right now since i had an ich out break last month. so far YOU are in the right direction for leaving the tank fishless for about 6-10 weeks at the same time treat the fish in quarantine for ich. it is also a good time for a prazipro treatment too.
ich so much pain the ***, first it took a toll on my scott's wrasse and killed it then i noticed the ich outbreak and needed to do drastic measure by collecting all fish and quarantine them. so far i have lost trio flame wrasse, pair scott's fairy wrasse, a hooded wrasse, trio laboutei wrasse, pair of rhomboid wrasse. the ich outbreak and the stress these fish went through was too much.
at least i am starting anew and will keep the fish tank fish less for 8 weeks and treat my quarantine of remaining fish then start over again. just because of a single fish i introduce without using a quarantine just ONCE, only ONCE i didn't use a quarantine. :cry:

What exactly is pazipro?


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[Dowtish]

You did catch the part where it was stated that you would have to QT all corals from this point on and that the QT for the corals could not contain a host for the parasite as well? (fish)

 

[Tylermacdonald15]

You did catch the part where it was stated that you would have to QT all corals from this point on and that the QT for the corals could not contain a host for the parasite as well? (fish)

If I buy any new corals would a coral dip solution kill the ich off?


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[Murfman]

Marine Ich/Cryptocaryon irritans - A Discussion of this Parasite and the Treatment Options Available, Part I by Steven Pro - Reefkeeping.com

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2004/mini4.htm

Garlic: What has been Studied Versus What has been Claimed by Steven Pro - Reefkeeping.com

ATJ's Marine Aquarium Site - Reference - Marine "Ich"

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2003/mini1.htm

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2003/mini2.htm

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2004/mini3.htm

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2004/mini4.htm

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2004/mini5.htm

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-1...ture/index.php​

 

[jcdeng]

If I buy any new corals would a coral dip solution kill the ich off?


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NOPE. you need a QT tank for coral, a QT tank for fish. The fish QT cannot be used to house corals anymore after you copper it. Each coral you add to the coral QT (frag tank) you will have to count 6-8 weeks, if you add another coral during those 6-8 week you wait time resets.

 

[Dowtish]

NOPE. you need a QT tank for coral, a QT tank for fish. The fish QT cannot be used to house corals anymore after you copper it. Each coral you add to the coral QT (frag tank) you will have to count 6-8 weeks, if you add another coral during those 6-8 week you wait time resets.

So with this fact that is stated here which I totally agree with, I have opted to take my chances and live with "ich" in my system. I believe this is true, but at the same time, I havent heard of folks saying they had an ich outbreak that took out their fish once they added a coral.

 

[Reefing Madness]

I don't think its possible to keep a tnak ICH free, not when adding any fish I should add. I haven't added any fish to my tank in a very long time. I went to rearrange my rock, stressed out my Hippo Tang, and BOOM, all of a sudden the ding dong has ICH. Where did he get this crap from??? It lives in the tank, period, always riding on someone that can handle it, and keep it at bay, a healthy fish, but stress that fish out, and you release the dragon. JMO, but anyways, my Hippo gets it from time to time, when I feel it necessary to do something to the tank he doesn't like, he and all the other fish beat it down, they are all healthy.

 

[jcdeng]

It is very possible to keep an ich free tank, as long as you are DONE with adding stuff to your DT. If you know your tank is fully stocked with every coral that you have wanted since to put water in that tank, then just simply (yeah, like catching all the fish in a tank is simple lol) catch all the fish in your tank and put them in a QT and either copper or hypo treat them for 8 weeks and return those fish to the DT and you will have an ICH free tank.

And ich is not really the end of the world, think of it as a cold sore, its an opportunistic infection, your fish can live with it or fight it off when they are happy and the immune system is good. When stressed and their immunity drops a little bit then the parasite gets a chance to attack.

 

[GrahamR]

I hear that if you feed garlic, slap your mother, and then spit on your father that you can cure ich! So that was sarcasm.... Ok, so for those out there that think that Cryptocaryon irritans or "marine Ich" is always present in any system... you are completely wrong. This organism is an obligate parasite and must have a host to survive. The members that have listed the time spans of 6-8 weeks are absolutely right about quarantining anything that you are going to put into your display tank (Thank you all for not perpetuating myths). Every fish... coral... live rock... invertebrate (shells)... etc...

Why is it important to quarantine all of these things? Well lets consider the life cycle first as this is essential for knowing how to control this parasite. C. irritans has a direct life cycle that consists of multiple stages. The feeding trophont stage resides on the fish (parasitizing skin, gills, fins). The trophont stage is actually what you see as the characteristic pinpoint white spots. Now just because a fish doesn't present with white spots doesn't mean there isn't a subclinical infection at work. Remember that the gills are also a site of infection and one that is not easily visualized without taking a gill clip and looking at it under a microscope. So the trophont stage is a ciliated stage that feeds on the fish and eventually will drop off the fish (either at the death of the fish or as mucus is sloughed off). After leaving the fish the trophont will fall onto a surface (sand, rock, side of tank, marine plants, etc) and encyst into a stage that is referred to as the tomont. This stage is environmentally hardy and is resistent to therapeutic treatments. Inside the trophont the parasite begins to asexually reproduce and divide with the end product being hundreds of tomite stages. The encysted tomites within the tomont will eventually be released and develop into ciliated infective theront stages. These are the stages that actually infect the fish by penetration upon contact. The theront stage is also the only stage that is targeted for treatment with copper, formalin, etc. Ok, so this entire process can take about a week depending upon temperature. I won't get into that because it varies depending on strain, publication, etc.

OK, so back to quarantining and why it can ensure that you have an Ich free tank.

Well as far as quarantining fish that is a no brainer. You quarantine and treat fish in a separate hospital tank. Problem solved! You don't introduce the trophonts on the fish into the display tank. No establishment of the life cycle in the tank.

On to why you need to quarantine rocks, plants, corals, etc. As I detailed in the brief summary of the life cycle, the tomont stage will encyst on the surface that it lands on. So you come home after buying a nice piece of live rock that you happened to purchase from a tank that also had fish. One of these fish happened to be infected with C. irritans and you didn't notice. You think it's okay to go ahead and not quarantine this piece of rock. A few days to a week later you notice small white spots on your fish in your display tank. Guess who introduced the parasite! YOU! I want to clearly stress that C. irritans is an obligate parasite. It MUST have a fish host in order to persist and survive in your tank. By letting the tank remain fishless for 6-8 weeks you account for the development of the parasite to the theront stages which eventually use up their energy stores and die after a period of 24-72 hours when they fail to penetrate a fish. Stress doesn't help the situation, but stress alone is not the reason that the fish has C. irritans. It was introduced into the tank at some point.

This rant has been a long time coming and is not directed at any single user. I wish that aquarists would be responsible enough to search for reliable sources of information regarding anything they are interested in knowing, but especially the subject of infectious diseases of fish. And by reliable sources I mean not just reading what someone has posted on a forum (even my post here - go look up this information for yourself!- I believe a user posted some links to a few review articles, etc above) I have heard it all when it comes to curing "ich"! From the traditional garlic to anything else. In my belief and from what I have found in the scientific literature, the only sure way to have a display tank free of C. irritans is to quarantine all things that you put into the display tank. Treat fish that are infected.

As a graduate student working with parasites of fish, I have a working knowledge of how many fish parasite life cycles work (protozoan, myxozoan, digenean, etc) and would like to help prevent the spread of the myths associated with marine ich.

 

[rlman41299]

I hear that if you feed garlic, slap your mother, and then spit on your father that you can cure ich! So that was sarcasm.... Ok, so for those out there that think that Cryptocaryon irritans or "marine Ich" is always present in any system... you are completely wrong. This organism is an obligate parasite and must have a host to survive. The members that have listed the time spans of 6-8 weeks are absolutely right about quarantining anything that you are going to put into your display tank (Thank you all for not perpetuating myths). Every fish... coral... live rock... invertebrate (shells)... etc...

Why is it important to quarantine all of these things? Well lets consider the life cycle first as this is essential for knowing how to control this parasite. C. irritans has a direct life cycle that consists of multiple stages. The feeding trophont stage resides on the fish (parasitizing skin, gills, fins). The trophont stage is actually what you see as the characteristic pinpoint white spots. Now just because a fish doesn't present with white spots doesn't mean there isn't a subclinical infection at work. Remember that the gills are also a site of infection and one that is not easily visualized without taking a gill clip and looking at it under a microscope. So the trophont stage is a ciliated stage that feeds on the fish and eventually will drop off the fish (either at the death of the fish or as mucus is sloughed off). After leaving the fish the trophont will fall onto a surface (sand, rock, side of tank, marine plants, etc) and encyst into a stage that is referred to as the tomont. This stage is environmentally hardy and is resistent to therapeutic treatments. Inside the trophont the parasite begins to asexually reproduce and divide with the end product being hundreds of tomite stages. The encysted tomites within the tomont will eventually be released and develop into ciliated infective theront stages. These are the stages that actually infect the fish by penetration upon contact. The theront stage is also the only stage that is targeted for treatment with copper, formalin, etc. Ok, so this entire process can take about a week depending upon temperature. I won't get into that because it varies depending on strain, publication, etc.

OK, so back to quarantining and why it can ensure that you have an Ich free tank.

Well as far as quarantining fish that is a no brainer. You quarantine and treat fish in a separate hospital tank. Problem solved! You don't introduce the trophonts on the fish into the display tank. No establishment of the life cycle in the tank.

On to why you need to quarantine rocks, plants, corals, etc. As I detailed in the brief summary of the life cycle, the tomont stage will encyst on the surface that it lands on. So you come home after buying a nice piece of live rock that you happened to purchase from a tank that also had fish. One of these fish happened to be infected with C. irritans and you didn't notice. You think it's okay to go ahead and not quarantine this piece of rock. A few days to a week later you notice small white spots on your fish in your display tank. Guess who introduced the parasite! YOU! I want to clearly stress that C. irritans is an obligate parasite. It MUST have a fish host in order to persist and survive in your tank. By letting the tank remain fishless for 6-8 weeks you account for the development of the parasite to the theront stages which eventually use up their energy stores and die after a period of 24-72 hours when they fail to penetrate a fish. Stress doesn't help the situation, but stress alone is not the reason that the fish has C. irritans. It was introduced into the tank at some point.

This rant has been a long time coming and is not directed at any single user. I wish that aquarists would be responsible enough to search for reliable sources of information regarding anything they are interested in knowing, but especially the subject of infectious diseases of fish. And by reliable sources I mean not just reading what someone has posted on a forum (even my post here - go look up this information for yourself!- I believe a user posted some links to a few review articles, etc above) I have heard it all when it comes to curing "ich"! From the traditional garlic to anything else. In my belief and from what I have found in the scientific literature, the only sure way to have a display tank free of C. irritans is to quarantine all things that you put into the display tank. Treat fish that are infected.

As a graduate student working with parasites of fish, I have a working knowledge of how many fish parasite life cycles work (protozoan, myxozoan, digenean, etc) and would like to help prevent the spread of the myths associated with marine ich.

Thank you for chiming in Graham. Very well said!!!
now i have to start over and wait out the life cycle of ich in my tank which is fish less now for 2 weeks. for 3 years never had ich because of my good practice of quarantine everything for 6-8 weeks. with just one mistake of adding a fish w/o quarantine for i will be out of town for 3 weeks and Boom!!!. 3 weeks later whole tank is infested with ich.
So fellow reefers, it is and is possible to have an ICH free tank!!!!!

 

[Reefing Madness]

Then the ICH thats still in my tank, needs to be schooled with this information. Because its not paying attention in class.

 

[GrahamR]

Then the ICH thats still in my tank, needs to be schooled with this information. Because its not paying attention in class.

How so?

 

[Reefing Madness]

If I haven't added any fish in over 9 months, then how is it that I can spook my Hippo out, and BOOM, there it is, he's got ICH again. That is why I say your tank will always have it, there are certain fish that will carry it with them, immune if you will, then scare the crap out of them, and BAM, you've gotten it back. I've had my Hippo for 4-5 years now, and she still gets it when I rearrange the tank or do something crazy that scares her.

 

[GrahamR]

If I haven't added any fish in over 9 months, then how is it that I can spook my Hippo out, and BOOM, there it is, he's got ICH again. That is why I say your tank will always have it, there are certain fish that will carry it with them, immune if you will, then scare the crap out of them, and BAM, you've gotten it back. I've had my Hippo for 4-5 years now, and she still gets it when I rearrange the tank or do something crazy that scares her.

Yeah, that seems to be a common finding. Stress can suppress immunity, so acts such as rearranging rock, shifts in water quality, etc might allow for the subclinical infection that is being maintained in your tank to become clinical (i.e. show spots and classic signs of Cryptocaryon). So I'm sure this is what you are experiencing. My point in the above post was to clarify that maintaining a tank free of Cryptocaryon is possible. Unfortunately, the process is time consuming, labor intensive, and requires a separate quarantine system (things that a lot of hobbyist might not be able to do). And also unfortunately, in your situation it would be more difficult to net and treat all of the fish in a separate system or systems.