Ich or flukes?

Discussion in 'Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis' started by dwwataz, Oct 4, 2017.

  1. dwwataz

    dwwataz wrasse enthusiast R2R Supporter

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    IMG_3064.PNG IMG_3063.PNG Hello. I've had this brunneus fairy wrasse in a pre-cycled 20g qt since last Tuesday. I did 24 hour prazi treatment on Saturday-Sunday, did a 5g waterchange, and have been running carbon to limit exposure. He didn't eat during the 24 hour treatment but has been since. He's getting more and more active so I'm actually getting to observe him now. I've noticed twitching behavior and I watched him scratch on pvc and an air stone(I think at the gill). There is a single spot on his left pectoral? fin but that's all I can see. I've never dealt with ich, so I'm not 100% what I'm looking for. I'm due to run the second round of prazi again on Saturday..Should I just wait and continue observing? I also have two tiny female fairy wrasses in there with them. No scratching and no obvious twitching. Nobody has labored breathing and, again, all are eating anything I feed. Thank you!
     
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  2. dwwataz

    dwwataz wrasse enthusiast R2R Supporter

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    Looks to be an opaque/almost grayish spot on left side. I'll have someone get me a bottle of distilled water and do a fw dip later this afternoon.
     
  3. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Expert Contributor Article Contributor Louisiana Reef Club Partner Member 2018

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    A FW dip probably won't show anything since you treated with Prazipro just a few days ago. If eggs are present, the hatchlings may not have emerged yet. I would stay the course with the second round of prazi on Saturday and reevaluate after that. Below shows what ich looks like on a fish:

    Ich2_zps8rzr4sfy.jpg
     
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  4. justinm

    justinm Well-Known Member

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    I can't see the spot you're talking about but lympho is a possibility. It tends to show up on fins.
     
  5. dwwataz

    dwwataz wrasse enthusiast R2R Supporter

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    Yea, can't get him to sit still long enough lol.

    He's REALLY scratching today. A couple times he darted around the tank and looked pretty pale. He is still eating though
     
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  6. nautical_nathaniel

    nautical_nathaniel Goby Whisperer R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor

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    Still eating is a good sign, feed him some good stuff and he'll be on his way to looking fantastic again in no time :)
     
  7. ngoodermuth

    ngoodermuth Well-Known Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Build Thread Contributor

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    Swimming into flow? Hiding from light? Breathing rapidly?

    Wrasses are tough, I've had quite a few wrasses and have seen tangs break out in ich or velvet while wrasses are just going about business as usual. Their thick slime coats keep infestations primarily to the gills, where they are still dangerous but less obvious to the casual observer.

    If he seems to get worse rapidly, I would consider the fw dip...not necessarily to look for flukes (though can still keep an eye out) but also to clear parasites and mucous from the gills and give him a bit of relief from whatever is ailing him.

    But, I have noticed in my own experience that some fairy wrasses are a bit more sensitive to fw dips than other fish. I've had to pull a couple before they actually went the full 5-minutes because they started to look distressed. Still helpful in an emergency, but use caution and observe carefully if needed.

    Also, once you have finished the second prazi round... I'd suggest maybe running him through a round of copper prophylactically.

    For the same reason it's often hard to tell what's bothering them, they can sometimes hide symptoms all together and become a "carrier" infecting other, less-resilient fish in your display. I know there are varying opinions on prophylactic treatment, but that's my take on it with wrasses in particular.
     
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  8. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Expert Contributor Article Contributor Louisiana Reef Club Partner Member 2018

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    This is a bad sign, probably means velvet.

    IME; a wrasse shouldn't be so greatly affected by ich or even flukes since you treated with Prazipro recently.
     
  9. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Expert Contributor Article Contributor Louisiana Reef Club Partner Member 2018

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  10. dwwataz

    dwwataz wrasse enthusiast R2R Supporter

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    They aren't swimming in front of the powerhead and there's zero light sensitivity. I'd say they're also no more reclusive than any other fish I've had in qt. On the contrary, they've started swimming towards me when I approach the tank(I'm the food guy). I noticed this morning, then again when I fed "lunch", that he does it most during/immediately after eating if that's worth anything? Neither of the girls have scratched.

    I did do a fw dip. Some tiny white specs. There was also 2 larger specs almost red/brown in color? I could swear there were tiny appendages?I also have two large dogs, including a big white pitbull mix, and found a stray hair in the bowl too. Unfortunately, I don't own a magnifying glass so I couldn't really verify anything.

    I went ahead and ordered coppersafe and an API test kit. That'll be here tomorrow. I fell through an attic at work back in March and need hip/back surgery, so I'm pretty limited as far as driving or really going anywhere(pain meds also prevent my driving). That's why I haven't really considered ttm.. Now, I don't have an ato. Is there ways to do hypo without one? I'll be honest, formalin scares me. I'm not comfortable messing with it
     
  11. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Expert Contributor Article Contributor Louisiana Reef Club Partner Member 2018

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    When using hypo to treat flukes, you have some wiggle room as you only need to maintain 15 ppt (1.011 SG) for 5 days to eliminate flukes & their eggs. So, just set the SG to 1.009 (regular hypo) and don't let it go over 1.011. 1.009 also eliminates some strains of ich (if he has that), but there are also hypo resistant strains of ich to consider. o_O However, the SG would have to be maintained at exactly 1.009 for 30 consecutive days to have any chance of success with eradicating ich.

    It is also possible that the tiny white specs you saw were the larvae, which the second round of Prazipro should eliminate completely come Saturday.

    When does the copper + test kit arrive?
     
  12. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Expert Contributor Article Contributor Louisiana Reef Club Partner Member 2018

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    Were the white specs you saw as big as this or smaller?

     
  13. dwwataz

    dwwataz wrasse enthusiast R2R Supporter

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    First of all, thank you for helping me with this. At the moment I only have the one qt tank, so I'll have to continue treatment(whichever method) in this one. Would I lower it over a couple days or bring it down immediately? I believe I read that you never do hypo with copper, so which would I want to start with? The copper and test kit come sometime tomorrow. The carriers are hit or miss in my area. Even with fish orders I'm guaranteed 10am delivery but then they show up between 1-4pm. To answer your other question, the white stuff was significantly smaller than those in the video.

    I did also want to touch on the scratching again. I don't know if it's coincidence, or even relevant, but I've only noticed it during/immediately after feeding. Because I'm on disability I'm home all day and do check on them and the other tanks throughout the day. That's the only time I've seen it.

    If you were me, what would your next step be? Wait it out til the second dose of prazi Saturday, go ahead and start lowering the salinity, or start with the copper tomorrow evening?
     
  14. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Expert Contributor Article Contributor Louisiana Reef Club Partner Member 2018

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    I believe what you saw in the FW dip was probably hatchlings (and not prazi resistant flukes), so I would proceed with the second dose of prazi on Saturday. You could perform a second FW dip 4-5 days after that to confirm flukes are 100% gone. If they are and he's still scratching come then, start raising the copper.

    That is what I would do in your shoes.
    :)
     
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  15. dwwataz

    dwwataz wrasse enthusiast R2R Supporter

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    Awesome. I was hoping you'd say that. Thank you again for your help. I'll update again in a few days
     
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  16. dwwataz

    dwwataz wrasse enthusiast R2R Supporter

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    Oh, @Humblefish should I just do the 24 hours again or do a full 3 days this round?
     
  17. Humblefish

    Humblefish Dr. Fish Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Expert Contributor Article Contributor Louisiana Reef Club Partner Member 2018

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    24 hours of prazi exposure is all that is required and wrasses aren't especially fond of that medication anyway. ;)
     
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  18. dwwataz

    dwwataz wrasse enthusiast R2R Supporter

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    Man, you and all this good news
    Thank you again
     
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  19. dwwataz

    dwwataz wrasse enthusiast R2R Supporter

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    IMG_3112.JPG Well, he's unfortunately still scratching here and there as of a few minutes ago. If I start copper I know I need to remove carbon and purigen. I have a couple very small pieces of lr, a few empty hermit shells, and a bio bag that I took from one of my nanos to seed the tank. Will all of that need to be removed too?
     
  20. 4FordFamily

    4FordFamily Tang, Angel, & Wrasse Addict R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Leader Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    Exactly my thoughts. The gills are typically where wrasse are affected and why at some point they sometimes drop dead seemingly for “no reason”
     
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