Ich still in QT after 30 days with cupramine

[pixelhustler]

I had an ich outbreak in my DT so I moved all my fish to a hospital tank. I’ve been treating with Cupramine for over 30 days and when I was ready to start eliminating the copper, I used the water from the hospital tank for a smaller tank of saltwater guppies. My logic I might as well treat them too since I plan on adding a few of them into my DT. A day later they all had ich, now I’m treating them with cupramine too. My question is how could it be that I still have ich in my hospital tank after 30 days of cupramine and running copper tests to ensure proper dosage. I kept it between .05 and .06 (colors are hard to read). The max dose tolerable is .08 (not recommended) and and recommended treatment is 14 days.
My other issue is my purple tang has HLLE probably due to the copper, but now I have to continue the treatment. Should I increase to .07-.08 for 14 days? I already lost a tang and a copperband at the beginning of the treatment so I’m worried about increasing dosage. Thank you

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I had an ich outbreak in my DT so I moved all my fish to a hospital tank. I’ve been treating with Cupramine for over 30 days and when I was ready to start eliminating the copper, I used the water from the hospital tank for a smaller tank of saltwater guppies. My logic I might as well treat them too since I plan on adding a few of them into my DT. A day later they all had ich, now I’m treating them with cupramine too. My question is how could it be that I still have ich in my hospital tank after 30 days of cupramine and running copper tests to ensure proper dosage. I kept it between .05 and .06 (colors are hard to read). The max dose tolerable is .08 (not recommended) and and recommended treatment is 14 days.
My other issue is my purple tang has HLLE probably due to the copper, but now I have to continue the treatment. Should I increase to .07-.08 for 14 days? I already lost a tang and a copperband at the beginning of the treatment so I’m worried about increasing dosage. Thank you

Just checking, did you drop a decimal? I think Cupramine full dose should be 0.5 ppm not 0.05
Hard to say what happened, even the best ich treatments sometimes fail. However, I think something else is going on, the guppies shouldn’t have shown ich just a day after being exposed to the water, the life cycle isn’t that quick...could they already been incubating ich?
Regarding copper and HLLE, it has been implicated, but never proven that there is a relationship. Carbon is often used after copper treatments and that has been proven to cause HLLE.
Jay

 

[pixelhustler]

Just checking, did you drop a decimal? I think Cupramine full dose should be 0.5 ppm not 0.05
Hard to say what happened, even the best ich treatments sometimes fail. However, I think something else is going on, the guppies shouldn’t have shown ich just a day after being exposed to the water, the life cycle isn’t that quick...could they already been incubating ich?
Regarding copper and HLLE, it has been implicated, but never proven that there is a relationship. Carbon is often used after copper treatments and that has been proven to cause HLLE.
Jay

Ah yes, I dropped a decimal there.
I did run carbon shortly after starting the hospital tank due to an ammonia spike, it didn’t really affect the concentration based on the test readings. I have since removed carbon so hopefully it will improve.
That’s a good point about the guppies - I did wonder if there was aerosol transmission as the tanks are all in the same room but having the ich outbreak following the WC made me think it was related.
Would you recommend trying to increase the dose to around .7 ppm or simply add another 15-30 days? I’m mostly worried about the tang at this point as they seem to be more sensitive. That said he eats like a maniac so he does seem healthy

 

[Jay Hemdal]

IMO, I wouldn't go above 0.6 with Cupramine. And remember to never use ammonia reducers/dechlor when running itl, and that it may interfere with some ammonia tests (the Seachem badges are supposed to work).

Jay

 

[Keen4]

IMO, I wouldn't go above 0.6 with Cupramine. And remember to never use ammonia reducers/dechlor when running itl, and that it may interfere with some ammonia tests (the Seachem badges are supposed to work).

Jay

Im just so curious why humble fish says to slowly raise the dose of cupramine to 1.5 minimum for therapeutic levels. Even the cupramine bottle says .5 max.
Also if Prime is used after cupramine to reduce ammonia what exactly does Seachem mean when they say that Prime converts cupramine into a "more toxic form"? If this happens do we just run an absorbent or large water change preferred?
#reefsquad

 

[Redfoxtang]

Im just so curious why humble fish says to slowly raise the dose of cupramine to 1.5 minimum for therapeutic levels. Even the cupramine bottle says .5 max.
Also if Prime is used after cupramine to reduce ammonia what exactly does Seachem mean when they say that Prime converts cupramine into a "more toxic form"? If this happens do we just run an absorbent or large water change preferred?
#reefsquad

Are you sure he wasn’t talking about Copper power and not cupramine?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Im just so curious why humble fish says to slowly raise the dose of cupramine to 1.5 minimum for therapeutic levels. Even the cupramine bottle says .5 max.
Also if Prime is used after cupramine to reduce ammonia what exactly does Seachem mean when they say that Prime converts cupramine into a "more toxic form"? If this happens do we just run an absorbent or large water change preferred?
#reefsquad

I can't speak to the idea of going 3x above the label instructions. Curpamine is copper bound to an amine, these are nitrogen compounds. Prime is a reducing agent and has an affinity for ammonia, which is another nitrogen compound. When you dose Cupramine with any strong reducer, it breaks the copper-amine bond, releasing free copper. Free copper ion is dosed at 0.20 mg/l. So - if you have Cupramine at 0.50, and that is kept less toxic to the fish, but then break the bond, you end up with above 0.2 mg/l free copper and that is toxic.

Jay

 

[saltyhog]

I found the testing kits for cupramine to be very hard to read and very unreliable. I suspect your tank has been subtherapeutic. For this reason I switched to Copper Power and Hanna Checker. Very easy to achieve and maintain therapeutic copper levels with this combo!

There also have recently been some strains of copper resistant ich noted. That is the reason for Humblefish's recommendations for higher copper levels (up to 2.5 with Copper Power) on copper tolerant fish.

Here's my QT log of a present batch of flasher wrasses in QT. The stability of the levels and the precision of the measurements are impressive to me.

 

[Reefahholic]

Im just so curious why humble fish says to slowly raise the dose of cupramine to 1.5 minimum for therapeutic levels. Even the cupramine bottle says .5 max.
Also if Prime is used after cupramine to reduce ammonia what exactly does Seachem mean when they say that Prime converts cupramine into a "more toxic form"? If this happens do we just run an absorbent or large water change preferred?
#reefsquad

@Humblefish has never said to raise Cupramine to 1.5 mg/L. I think you heard him talking about CopperPower.

Prime shouldn’t be used with Cupramine. Seachem themselves have already stated on their website that using any ammonia reducer with their Cupramine is not recommended.

However, from what we know now...you can use Prime with Copper Power to control ammonia. After testing... there hasn’t been a noted spike in the Cu level. None.

Prime can also be used with Chloroquine, General Cure and antibiotics.

 

[Reefahholic]

I can't speak to the idea of going 3x above the label instructions. Curpamine is copper bound to an amine, these are nitrogen compounds. Prime is a reducing agent and has an affinity for ammonia, which is another nitrogen compound. When you dose Cupramine with any strong reducer, it breaks the copper-amine bond, releasing free copper. Free copper ion is dosed at 0.20 mg/l. So - if you have Cupramine at 0.50, and that is kept less toxic to the fish, but then break the bond, you end up with above 0.2 mg/l free copper and that is toxic.

Jay

Yep, Cupramine is an ionic copper. Both Copper Power and CopperSafe or chelated coppers. This is likely why Seachem doesn’t recommend Cupramine to be used with ammonia reducers. It’s a different form of copper that may have to potential to become very toxic and kill your fish. Not saying it will, but I don’t think you wanna test that with fish in the tank.

If anybody wants to test it. Dose a 5 gallon with the appropriate dose and test with the Hanna copper meter. After dosing check 5 min, 30 min, 1 hr, 2 hrs, etc.

 

[Keen4]

@Humblefish has never said to raise Cupramine to 1.5 mg/L. I think you heard him talking about CopperPower.

Prime shouldn’t be used with Cupramine. Seachem themselves have already stated on their website that using any ammonia reducer with their Cupramine is not recommended.

However, from what we know now...you can use Prime with Copper Power to control ammonia. After testing... there hasn’t been a noted spike in the Cu level. None.

Prime can also be used with Chloroquine, General Cure and antibiotics.

Gosh I am such an idiot. How the hell did I not read humblefish’s qt for copper directions correctly. Yes your right- he clearly states nothing about cupramine and mentions dosing Copper Power slowly in a 48hr period to 1.5 then another 48 hrs to 2.5. For some reason I thought he meant ANY kind of copper treatment. Then I freaked out when I saw my ammonia level dark green on the api test kit and did a water change and dosed Prime. After reading online I realized that I created a toxic environment waking up to a dead yellow tang. Then 12 hrs later a dead black velvet damsel. Then later on a dead mandarin goby. I’ve since started the QT over with bio balls and bio rings from my DT sump and dosed night out and been observing with no copper treatment. I have copper power now. I just want to monitor the ammonia before I continue. It’s not dark green that’s for sure. Seems stable for now and no signs of ich or stress. Fins are healing up.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Gosh I am such an idiot. How the hell did I not read humblefish’s qt for copper directions correctly. Yes your right- he clearly states nothing about cupramine and mentions dosing Copper Power slowly in a 48hr period to 1.5 then another 48 hrs to 2.5. For some reason I thought he meant ANY kind of copper treatment. Then I freaked out when I saw my ammonia level dark green on the api test kit and did a water change and dosed Prime. After reading online I realized that I created a toxic environment waking up to a dead yellow tang. Then 12 hrs later a dead black velvet damsel. Then later on a dead mandarin goby. I’ve since started the QT over with bio balls and bio rings from my DT sump and dosed night out and been observing with no copper treatment. I have copper power now. I just want to monitor the ammonia before I continue. It’s not dark green that’s for sure. Seems stable for now and no signs of ich or stress. Fins are healing up.

Just to interject - Fish treatments can be confusing here - I always get mixed up myself when people write "CP" as that can mean "Chloroquine Phosphate" but they usually mean "Copper Power" (grin). One thing that helps me is I double check every medication calculation before I administer it, math errors can also be a big issue.

Humbelfish is incorrect in regards to the slow ramping up of the Copper Power dose - this is an over-extrapolation from the old school copper/citric acid solutions, those needed to be ramped up slowly (over 24 hours) when used on sensitive fish like pygmy angels. People took that and thought, "then longer must be even better". Now people are taking 3 to 5 days to get to full copper. I get frequent cases now where the protozoan issue takes the fish out while they are still ramping the copper up - and THEN the people think it is a reaction to the copper and back off! For active disease, you need to get copper up in 12 hours. Remember all the dealers and wholesaler who copper their systems - those fish go right in! I add Coppersafe as one dose, every time, no issues. Cupramine could be a different issue....

Jay

 

[piranhaman00]

Cupramine is useless, there is no benefit over Copper Power. Switch to copper power and dose to 2.2ppm, much larger theraputic range, much less toxic, can dose prime ect ect. list goes on. No reason to use cupramine.

End rant.

 

[Sleeping Giant]

Im just so curious why humble fish says to slowly raise the dose of cupramine to 1.5 minimum for therapeutic levels. Even the cupramine bottle says .5 max.
Also if Prime is used after cupramine to reduce ammonia what exactly does Seachem mean when they say that Prime converts cupramine into a "more toxic form"? If this happens do we just run an absorbent or large water change preferred?
#reefsquad

You can use prime, but you need to allow at minimum 24 hrs for it to sit in the new water before treating with cupramine or you can kill the fish

 

[Sleeping Giant]

Cupramine is useless, there is no benefit over Copper Power. Switch to copper power and dose to 2.2ppm, much larger theraputic range, much less toxic, can dose prime ect ect. list goes on. No reason to use cupramine.

End rant.

It might be the only option this person has, no need to bash on them for using it.

 

[piranhaman00]

It might be the only option this person has, no need to bash on them for using it.

Not bashing them? Bashing cupramine lol.

 

[Sleeping Giant]

Not bashing them? Bashing cupramine lol.

I used it, no problem.

 

[piranhaman00]

I used it, no problem.

Ive used it too without problem. Just not necessary unelss of course they cant get it as you mentioned no hard feelings.

 

[DaddyFish]

I second the vote for straight to CopperSafe if available. I've battled Ich and Velvet several times in different tanks over the past year using Ich-X, Formalin, Cupramine, Herbal something-another... lots of dead fish and almost no positive outcomes until I switched to CopperSafe.

Freshwater dip and straight to a full-dose Fritz CopperSafe environment is my go-to treatment now.

I also gave up testing CopperSafe with anything other than a Hanna checker. You're better off just being careful about the dosage, pre-dose all water changes for that exact volume of water and trust the level is correct. Seachem Copper Test will return wild results both low and high. Salifert is difficult to interpret and typically returns a false slightly high. Hanna checker is spot-on for copper.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I second the vote for straight to CopperSafe if available. I've battled Ich and Velvet several times in different tanks over the past year using Ich-X, Formalin, Cupramine, Herbal something-another... lots of dead fish and almost no positive outcomes until I switched to CopperSafe.

Freshwater dip and straight to a full-dose Fritz CopperSafe environment is my go-to treatment now.

I also gave up testing CopperSafe with anything other than a Hanna checker. You're better off just being careful about the dosage, pre-dose all water changes for that exact volume of water and trust the level is correct. Seachem Copper Test will return wild results both low and high. Salifert is difficult to interpret and typically returns a false slightly high. Hanna checker is spot-on for copper.

I found that the simple API test kit works well with Coppersafe - but with one important caveat, I read the results on a custom curve I made for a Hach spectrophotometer - I can't eyeball it at all (grin).

Jay