Ich

[davidcalgary29]

My luck, instead of ich, it would be velvet that I introduce.

that is interesting.... building up the immune system.
can you share a link? I looked up PaulB without any results.

You can read it here.

 

[Paul B]

What Paul does is use ocean rocks and ocean water and ocean supplies and food he makes at home, nobody is doing that in this thread.

Leaving out the ways Paul's tank differs from every tank in Jay's disease forum is a big deal

Paul runs zero disease forums, and is not tasked with fixing anyone's disease issues live time. Jay sure is tasked with that, humblefish too

The op here needs referred to Jay's disease forum, and the first response to the op pretty much summarized it. Those are the types of tanks the op has here, not Paul's type. Nobody has Paul's type.

LOL all the mis-information here. Brandon knows that I do use rocks from the sea, NSW and sea foods. I live next to the sea now and for the last almost 5 years. But for the first 45 years I did not so I used ASW like everyone else with some NSW when I could get it.

It is not the NSW or the rocks from the sea. Those things will help with water conditions but will do nothing to eliminate ich. Of course I don't want to eliminate ich as I have said 173 times over decades.

It's mainly the hobbiests who constantly try to eliminate pathogens who have problems with them as they are a normal, natural part of the sea and our hobby. Eliminating parasites is the same as eliminating the fishes immune systems. No, I didn't make that up we all learned in grammar school how the immune system works and it works in the presence of pathogens not the other way around.

I have also posted many scientific studies on this for the people who care about that sort of stuff even though scientists study these things under sterile laboratory conditions which means nothing in this hobby or the real world.

We make this hobby much harder than it has to be with all the "Battling" of algae, flatworms, cyano and parasites.

This is not a war, it's a hobby and relatively simple. I am a simple kind of a guy and I have no problems. (Well, I am bald ) I never even went to college (There was that war thing) but learned everything I know by watching and common sense.

Brandon, I go on disease forums, never because I think it is silly to allow your fish to become infected with anything. I can leave that to Randy. He likes that.

I have posted numerous times how to keep your fish healthy but it isn't going to happen in a quarantined or medicated tank nor a tank fed dry foods. A new tank or a tank that is cleaned to death. A tank with no algae or a tank with white, new rocks. A tank with a couple of caves made out of a few large rocks, a tank with PVC pipes and a few other things.

 

[Tamberav]

I have posted numerous times how to keep your fish healthy but it isn't going to happen in a quarantined or medicated tank nor a tank fed dry foods. A new tank or a tank that is cleaned to death. A tank with no algae or a tank with white, new rocks. A tank with a couple of caves made out of a few large rocks, a tank with PVC pipes and a few other things.

This describes a lot of tanks. Pellets, dry rock, bottled potions like vibrant or chemi clean, etc.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

H2O2 Hybrid Tank Transfer Method https://humble.fish/community/index.php?threads/hybrid-ttm-to-treat-more-parasites.1765/

This has a lot of really good useful information on this method. People are seeing great results with this low stress treatment method.

The problem with that method is what do you do with the fish at the end of the TTM cycle? If you put them back into the DT, they will just become reinfected.

That method also causes a lot of unneeded stress - ammonia needs to be carefully controlled and fish just don't appreciate being held in bare containers and transferred every 3 days.



Jay

 

[Paul B]

This describes a lot of tanks. Pellets, dry rock, bottled potions like vibrant or chemi clean, etc.

Yes my friend Tamberav. I know, which is why the hobby is all about disease or problems and not about the joy of watching a normal, healthy, natural tank. A few minutes ago I was sitting in a comfortable chair in my fish/man cave room with the lights out except for my tank listening to vintage Linda Ronstadt enjoying the beautiful healthy fish swimming around smiling as they to enjoyed the music.

The mandarins and ruby red dragonettes especially enjoyed the Procol Harem sing A Whiter Shade of Pale as they were spawning..

I love this hobby but if it becomes all problems like many tanks, there is a dumpster not far from my front door.

 

[Paul B]

I have to find it but it's hundreds of pages something like 47 year old tank for your search here

A discussion on immunity

I have been thinking about this for seven or eight years and finally, through scientific research and my experimentation I think I have figured out something that may change the way we run aquariums. For many years I have been feeding live blackworms, live amphipods and live new born brine...

www.reef2reef.com

Fish lifespans and what we can do to lengthen it.

I just sat through a 6 hour lecture on this and I needed to get it out of my head Why do fish, and us have a lifespan? Why can't we live forever like Moses who was supposed to live 900 years. (I doubt he lived a day over 600) There is actually a reason we have a life span and none of us ever...

www.reef2reef.com

The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

The other way to run a reef tank (No Quarantine) I was asked by my friend Humblefish to start a thread on my practices of running a tank with no quarantine, hospital tanks, medications, dipping or almost anything else. It is "not" just to take a fish from a store and drop it in your reef...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Sharkbait19]

The main thing is the difference between immunity and resistance. It’s not possible to be immune to a parasitic organism like ich, if it gets in the system it will infect the fish. There aren’t antibodies generated against ich (unless I’m mistaken), but if so, any fish exposed at one point would build them. It’s more of a resistance, where the fish are kept healthy enough to effectively combat ich and keep it from spreading.
I do strongly believe in qt, as there are many things that can get in and don’t go away so easy (brook, velvet). I have read your articles Paul, it is clear you know what you’re doing and that it works - but in no way does it work for everyone.

 

[Paul B]

Paul, it is clear you know what you’re doing and that it works - but in no way does it work for everyone.

I guess I have magic.

 

[Paul B]

There aren’t antibodies generated against ich (unless I’m mistaken),

You may be mistaken:

Defenses in Fish SkinMaría Ángeles Esteban)
Quote: Immunity associated with the parasites depends on the inhabiting discrete sites in the host. Especially important for this paper are the ectoparasites, those habiting in or on the skin. Until recently there had been little direct evidence of innate immune mechanisms against parasites associated with mucosal epithelium [285]. The active immunological role of skin against parasitic infection has been shown recently [286–288], and now mucosal immunity against them start to be elucidated.
Non-parasitic fishes usually die following infection, but animals surviving sublethal parasite exposure become resistant to subsequent challenge. This resistance correlates with the presence of humoral antibodies in the sera and cutaneous mucus of immune fishes.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

You may be mistaken:

Defenses in Fish SkinMaría Ángeles Esteban)
Quote: Immunity associated with the parasites depends on the inhabiting discrete sites in the host. Especially important for this paper are the ectoparasites, those habiting in or on the skin. Until recently there had been little direct evidence of innate immune mechanisms against parasites associated with mucosal epithelium [285]. The active immunological role of skin against parasitic infection has been shown recently [286–288], and now mucosal immunity against them start to be elucidated.
Non-parasitic fishes usually die following infection, but animals surviving sublethal parasite exposure become resistant to subsequent challenge. This resistance correlates with the presence of humoral antibodies in the sera and cutaneous mucus of immune fishes.

It's complicated. In one study, they found immune response in gilthead sea bream, but the fish showed a 100% mortality, so that immunity wasn't conferred. In another study, they attempted to make a vaccine for ich, but it only created a 17% increase in survival. Most people reference a paper by Burgess: Fish that have survived a challenge with Cryptocaryon irritans can develop some level of acquired immunity for up to six months. Some fish will not develop any protection or acquired immunity. (Burgess & Mathews, 1995b).

So - there IS an immune response, but it is transient, doesn't happen with all species and is at a fairly low percentage increase of survival.

Jay

 

[Paul B]

Jay my friend. When Burgess came out with his study I wrote to him for additional information. I don't remember what he said because it was 28 years ago. He studied the life cycle of parasites under laboratory settings which, to me doesn't mean anything in the real world.

Parasites will kill fish just like bullets will kill us, but not if we don't stand in front of a gun.
In the real world, parasites don't kill fish unless they are in a tank. In the sea I doubt any fish die of parasites....OK,,Maybe one or two.

In the sea fish keep up their immunity because as you said and as that study you posted that parasite immunity is transient. It is. We don't know how long the immunity lasts but we know that it wanes just like most vaccines we get which is why we need to get booster shots.

But if we keep a "natural" tank where parasites are not eliminated, just like the sea, our fish will keep their immunity forever and parasites will be a non issue.

The theory that the fish are trapped in a tank and the parasites will eventually grow to proportions where they will overwhelm the fishes immunity does not make sense because the fish will be immune
(temporary or not) so the parasites have a very hard time reproducing and can not overwhelm the fish. The very presence of the parasites keeps the fish immune as parasites are actually needed for that so killing parasites is the exact opposite way to keep fish protected from parasites.

A fishes immune system will grow as strong as it needs to be for the situation it is in.

"UNLESS" the fish is stressed. Quarantine, medication, the wrong food and an un natural aquascape is a huge stressor of fish and the natural immunity all of our fish have when we get them is lost using those processes.

That is why, and you know that I know that you know that when we prescribe medication for a certain ailment, many times the fish succumbs to something else..

I fought in Viet Nam and no matter how many enemy (at the time) we killed, there were more. If we could have just made friends with the Vietnamese we would have gone home and we all would have lived happily in peace. We didn't so we kept getting killed until we left.

In this hobby which started over 50 years ago we still go by those original methods. I know because I was here the day this hobby started and I used to think the same way. I got past that and found out how to use parasites and algae to our advantage in keeping a tank happy and healthy with no help from us.

Fish are not delicate creatures that need to be coddled, they just need us to leave them alone so they can use the natural processes they were born with.

It is not just drop and plop like people say as that will kill your fish. It has to do with gut bacteria, stress and a few other things that I can't go into in this thread as I went on to long already.

If it works in my very hands off tank, it will work in any tank.
Jay remember your friend with that tank where everything lived no matter what he did.

 

[brandon429]

I believe rocks from the sea, fresh collected sea water, ocean pods from mudflat zones + all hand prep feed would benefit most reef tanks here. wish I had some mud flat pods for sure. we've got to match disease controls to how the population presents, or, that population should stop buying fish until they can acquire ocean materials

something's gotta give though in the current procedure of buy pet store marine fish, add them, lives for eight months, dies while corals and cuc lives.

it does not matter if someone cycles via bottle bac, or live rock transfer from another tank, or by ocean rocks mailed and cured from the common sources: threads in Jay's forum present from all those prep angles evenly in disease help posts. that's fascinating; that something beyond initial prep is needed to keep from losing most fish within a few mos of setup in today's startup reefs.


I'm all for anyone developing a thread where other people show their reefs that get no fish preps *but they follow dedicated hand food preps for the tank. no box food, active food prepper's thread. you may be onto something, without the thread of other people's tanks we can't know. I'm sure there are astounding health benefits for fish when diet is modified away from frozen foods and into fresh foods with a fresh microbiome like you've mentioned Paul.


most reefs are fed takeout.

 

[Paul B]

Brandon, what most people don't get it is not just the food. It is the "live" bacteria in the food. That controls the health and immunity of fish almost 100%.

If you use all store bought food, you may not be getting the correct living bacteria. Live worms which are practically free and available everywhere even on Mars will do that as will clams that are not bought in an LFS. Human food clams are the best. If you live in Tunisia, your fish won't care, they need the proper food and you can probably get a live whiteworm culture in Tunisia.

Aquascape is a huge thing also as it pertains to health. A semi bare tank with a few large caves won't do it as that will stress out the fish to no end. We have to make the fish feel they are safe and the only way to do that is to lay out the tank so the fish have tight, dark places to hide where we can't see them.

I am speaking on this this week. I can't keep saying it. AAAAAAARrrrrrrrrgggggggggg