Ich

[Jay Hemdal]

Lights are out but I have seen some movement.

Sorry, but this bears repeating - turning the lights out for Amyloodinium infections does not help - this species does not have chloroplasts. Lowering light levels helps against overall stress, but keeping the tank fully dark disrupts the fish's ability to feed.

Amyloodinium E.-M.Brown & Hovasse, 1946 :: AlgaeBase

Algaebase :: Listing the World's Algae

www.algaebase.org

Jay

 

[HankstankXXL750]

How did they respond to the food

Everyone are really well and actively. Except the marine beta.

 

[HankstankXXL750]

Sorry, but this bears repeating - turning the lights out for Amyloodinium infections does not help - this species does not have chloroplasts. Lowering light levels helps against overall stress, but keeping the tank fully dark disrupts the fish's ability to feed.

Amyloodinium E.-M.Brown & Hovasse, 1946 :: AlgaeBase

Algaebase :: Listing the World's Algae

www.algaebase.org

Jay

Thanks Jay, light were out as they hadn’t come on yet.

 

[HankstankXXL750]

Update. We decided to try the H2O2 treatment as described in the humble.fish link I listed above.

I increased to the second stage of dosing now every 8 hours. All of the fish have maintained their appetites and we haven’t lost a single fish. With the exception of the Harlequin Tuskfish, but as I posted on another thread, I believe it died from the injuries it sustained in QT from banging the rocks and aquarium.

However it appears that the ich may be cycling again as they seem to be breathing faster tonight and maybe have more spots which I thought were dissipating.

 

[HankstankXXL750]

@Jay Hemdal ao things took a turn for the worst today. Three of the angels passed. Appearance is dusty, but different from any ich or velvet pictures I can find. However they were all lethargic and rapidly breathing. I know this could just be ich or velvet attacking with renewed vigor but wondering if there are other diseases? The Marine beta looks pretty good.

The only angel left is our queen. And she has some fin rot or something going on that wasn’t there yesterday. I am not aware of anyone who would have nipped her. The beta does not show aggression and the only other two fish are a snowflake eel and a Bella goby.

Here is a picture of her fin.

 

[HankstankXXL750]

Better picture.

 

[HankstankXXL750]

Sorry hit post instead of add file.

 

[jmichaelh7]

Too bad man… I would’ve went copper but not trying to bag on what you should’ve done .

good luck with the remaining angel . Again it’s unfortunate

I’m sorry for your losses.

 

[HankstankXXL750]

If I didn’t have all my QT setups with fish already I would have. I’ve read about the H2O2 and even had it work for me a year ago in a smaller tank. So I figured I had to at least try something. I have to assume velvet I guess. Looked like powdered sugar or flour almost 100% covered. Then cleared up after about three days of H2O2. Then yesterday they didn’t eat as well as they have been. I hadn’t notice a lack of appetite. Then one dead this morning and I tried a couple dips on two that looked to be at deaths door, and they didn’t make it through the dip.

Haven’t told the wife yet. She is going to cry.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal ao things took a turn for the worst today. Three of the angels passed. Appearance is dusty, but different from any ich or velvet pictures I can find. However they were all lethargic and rapidly breathing. I know this could just be ich or velvet attacking with renewed vigor but wondering if there are other diseases? The Marine beta looks pretty good.

The only angel left is our queen. And she has some fin rot or something going on that wasn’t there yesterday. I am not aware of anyone who would have nipped her. The beta does not show aggression and the only other two fish are a snowflake eel and a Bella goby.

Here is a picture of her fin.

Very sorry to hear.

Advanced ich looks a lot like velvet (Amyloodinium) in fact, many people confuse the two. A microscope is the sure way to tell them apart. However, with ich, you don't see rapid breathing and not eating until the end, where with velvet, that shows up early in the infection. With advanced ich, the spots run together and get smaller looking.

The fin damage is likely from a secondary to the protozoan parasite. Marine Betta and snowflake eels are resistant to ich, and the eel is partially resistant to velvet, so that accounts for why they are still hanging on. I can't explain the bella goby though.

Low dose H2O2 is still experimental and being looked at mostly at the hobbyist level. A lot of this is being fueled by a a few papers where protozoans were controlled using peroxide dips. However, the dose was much higher 25, 75 and 150 ppm, for a shorter period. Using it for Cryptocaryon, on a very low dose, static bath basis is over-extrapolated from those studies IMO. Percarbonates have also been studied (resulting, apparently, in the formulation of Polyp Lab Medic).

I think that peroxides have a role in disease management, as an adjunct to UV, pristine water, good diet, heavy filtration, etc. I don't think they will ever be shown to be effective in low dose reef applications for active disease cases (acute cases where fish loss either has occurred or is expected soon).


Jay

 

[HankstankXXL750]

Very sorry to hear.

Advanced ich looks a lot like velvet (Amyloodinium) in fact, many people confuse the two. A microscope is the sure way to tell them apart. However, with ich, you don't see rapid breathing and not eating until the end, where with velvet, that shows up early in the infection. With advanced ich, the spots run together and get smaller looking.

The fin damage is likely from a secondary to the protozoan parasite. Marine Betta and snowflake eels are resistant to ich, and the eel is partially resistant to velvet, so that accounts for why they are still hanging on. I can't explain the bella goby though.

Low dose H2O2 is still experimental and being looked at mostly at the hobbyist level. A lot of this is being fueled by a a few papers where protozoans were controlled using peroxide dips. However, the dose was much higher 25, 75 and 150 ppm, for a shorter period. Using it for Cryptocaryon, on a very low dose, static bath basis is over-extrapolated from those studies IMO. Percarbonates have also been studied (resulting, apparently, in the formulation of Polyp Lab Medic).

I think that peroxides have a role in disease management, as an adjunct to UV, pristine water, good diet, heavy filtration, etc. I don't think they will ever be shown to be effective in low dose reef applications for active disease cases (acute cases where fish loss either has occurred or is expected soon).


Jay

Thanks.

 

[artieg1]

Just reviewing quickly, this sounds like velvet. I went through exactly the same thing 3 years ago. But even if it is a particularly nasty strain of ich, your best option is the same: remove the fish, treat them and see if any live, and go fallow in the DT. It was a huge PITA. But three years on, with a regular QT process for my fish, I am in a much happier place and you will be too. It is kind of sad now, I am not in the market for fish any more because the dang things are so healthy. Buy a Rubbermaid tub or three.

 

[HankstankXXL750]

Just reviewing quickly, this sounds like velvet. I went through exactly the same thing 3 years ago. But even if it is a particularly nasty strain of ich, your best option is the same: remove the fish, treat them and see if any live, and go fallow in the DT. It was a huge PITA. But three years on, with a regular QT process for my fish, I am in a much happier place and you will be too. It is kind of sad now, I am not in the market for fish any more because the dang things are so healthy. Buy a Rubbermaid tub or three.

With the period of time between starting and dying, I think Jay is right that it was probably ich. But don’t know as I always thought ich was bigger spots.

I have a 100 gallon QT that I run all the time. 3 smaller tanks run through a centralized sump. But it has 4 fish in it and I didn’t want to get them all sick.

Also have 4 20’s and 2 40’s, but I didn’t expect to need this as the fish in the DT had been QT’d and then in the tank at least a month, so I shifted the 40’s and 1 20 to QT corals. Been doing so well that I didn’t want to introduce anything with a new coral purchase. So just hit at the very worst possible moment. Should have probably put the corals in the tank.

Definitely going to have an action plan for the next time. I had success with the H2O2 in a Red Sea 350 once so thought I’d try it. Don’t know if we would have had better success if I had gotten a 100 gallon plastic stock tank and tried a large hospital, but thinking I might have had just as bad a time as it wouldn’t be cycled.

 

[DarkReefer]

Sorry to hear you had some losses.

I know it's a bit late in the piece now and that it's been previously mentioned but I wanted to +1 the Polyp Labs Medic.

Given you didn't have access to the QT, would've been worth trying.
I went through this process myself earlier this year.

I was very skeptical of this product as everyone on the internet screams copper treatments and QT tanks whenever this comes up so I was surprised when a LFS even suggested a product that they said they'd used and had success with. I thought it was bs and couldn't possibly work if so many people online shout copper. If it's so great why didn't people mention it type of thinking...

Anyway, tried it, and it went away, noticed it start to come back a few days before the treatment finished but it went away again. You may have to potentially do 2 treatment rounds perhaps if it's super bad, but it would be worth trying for those who don't have the money or perhaps the space to run a QT tank.
My fish are still swimming around months later and appear to be happy and healthy thankfully.

I will note though that it did throw my nutrients out a bit though and had to work to bring those back into check.

 

[HankstankXXL750]

Sorry to hear you had some losses.

I know it's a bit late in the piece now and that it's been previously mentioned but I wanted to +1 the Polyp Labs Medic.

Given you didn't have access to the QT, would've been worth trying.
I went through this process myself earlier this year.

I was very skeptical of this product as everyone on the internet screams copper treatments and QT tanks whenever this comes up so I was surprised when a LFS even suggested a product that they said they'd used and had success with. I thought it was bs and couldn't possibly work if so many people online shout copper. If it's so great why didn't people mention it type of thinking...

Anyway, tried it, and it went away, noticed it start to come back a few days before the treatment finished but it went away again. You may have to potentially do 2 treatment rounds perhaps if it's super bad, but it would be worth trying for those who don't have the money or perhaps the space to run a QT tank.
My fish are still swimming around months later and appear to be happy and healthy thankfully.

I will note though that it did throw my nutrients out a bit though and had to work to bring those back into check.

Dealing with nutrients is a lot better than dead fish. I’ll look into it as a backup. One problem I have is no LFS. And have to order online anything I don’t have. So I’ll probably order some of this and some Ruby red as it was mentioned also.

Thanks.