ICP. Ho.. Huh, What is it goo-ood for? Absolutely….

Biokabe

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Wait, my problems cant be solved by something in a bottle?
Depends on what your problem is and what's in the bottle...
How do you know it was fine ? I sent 3 samples from the same tank to two different ICP providers, and none of them matched. And I sent them in the same box at the same time?

How were you able to confirm your results were accurate vs random numbers on a spreadsheet?
Which two ICP providers did you use? How often did you repeat your test? Did you do any tests yourself to provide reference values, taken at the same time as you sampled the water for your ICP test?

For the record, I don't disagree with you that the importance and efficacy of ICP is overstated, and I personally find it of limited use - it takes, on average, two weeks to get a result back from any of the more reliable ICP testers, and two weeks is plenty of time for a tank to go completely south. For testing to be truly worthwhile, it needs to give you feedback in enough time to act on its results. Even if ICP testing were 100% accurate, I would only find it useful for confirming that my home test kits were reasonably accurate.

But stating that you did ICP tests with two different providers and got shady results, and then making the leap that ALL ICP testing is useless - that's a conclusion that isn't born out by your experience. At most, you've confirmed for yourself that the two you did the test with have larger than acceptable error bars for your purposes.
 
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ReefRxSWFL

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I don't discount what you are saying but I can use my Hanna checkers for everything basically and then use them again 5 minutes later and get slightly different results too. I think these tests just give you a reference point to work with but don't consider them perfectly accurate. Kind of like using a refractometer or digital one. Is is 100% accurate? No way, just ball park accurate. Your tank tells you what it needs.
Hanna checkers are know to be inaccurate for several tests, especially Alk.

I gave mine away after I did 5 consecutive tests and got 5 different results spanning 4dkh, which were way off from using a salifert kit 3 times, which was within .3 each time.

i do like nitrate and phosphate though, because even if they are wrong, they are less wrong than any other nitrate and phosphate kits.
 
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ReefRxSWFL

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It's kind of funny
I have used Prime, Vibrant, Purple Up and a host of other things in a bottle. They worked.
I used Prime to treat the ammonia levels after my live rock shipped in. Vibrant got rid of some bryopsis for me. The Purple up was long ago and I dont remember. I have used Chemiclean a bunch of times.

And then I come down to is this another random rant on the internet.
My experiences with ICP testing don't agree with yours about that either.

So have fun and I wont waste any more of my time here
Ok. Were glad for you. Well get off your lawn.
 

reefiniteasy

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Please post the results and the two companies used. Otherwise this is a waste of time. I recently sent out two ICP tests, one to ICP-Analysis and Reef-Labs. Both showed pretty much the same deficiencies. I’m satisfied and now going to start dosing some trace elements.
 

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how did I get 3 different results from the same tank, at the same time, shipped in the same box to the tester? Using 2 different testers?

idk what moonshiners do. Sounds like someone else who wants to give their own pet name to chemistry. Moonshiners =chemistry, Triton=chemistry, Zeovit=chemistry.

Ive seen lots of them come and go over the last 20+ years.
It is bottled trace elements like Triton. I was just curiois as to how they get the said results by adding many different elements using icp.
They are all sent to Germany so their is a 2 week lag time.

I sent a sample to Triton icp in LA.
Their results were close enough to my test that I would probably not use them again. This was from a tank with no issues and 2 years old.
 
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ReefRxSWFL

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Depends on what your problem is and what's in the bottle...

Which two ICP providers did you use? How often did you repeat your test? Did you do any tests yourself to provide reference values, taken at the same time as you sampled the water for your ICP test?

For the record, I don't disagree with you that the importance and efficacy of ICP is overstated, and I personally find it of limited use - it takes, on average, two weeks to get a result back from any of the more reliable ICP testers, and two weeks is plenty of time for a tank to go completely south. For testing to be truly worthwhile, it needs to give you feedback in enough time to act on its results. Even if ICP testing were 100% accurate, I would only find it useful for confirming that my home test kits were reasonably accurate.

But stating that you did ICP tests with two different providers and got shady results, and then making the leap that ALL ICP testing is useless - that's a conclusion that isn't born out by your experience. At most, you've confirmed for yourself that the two you did the test with have larger than acceptable error bars for your purposes.
Unless you have a problem you can’t identify any other way, i don't see whats useful about it Guess I just wanted to see what the cool kids do. I essentially wanted to check if I had any metals, bc nothing else was of value to me. Ive been doing this almost 25 years without it, so, yeah. Maybe Neptune can come up with one to plug into the Ape

i didnt want to throw a brand under the bus, but what the heck. It was Triton and ICP-Analysis.

Also, i dont see the value in doing it routinely. Do you know what happens to a reef tank with low vanadium? High boron?

Maybe RHF does, but ive found most of my success by keeping things simple. If something seems wrong with your tank, and you cant identify it, a large OG water change will fix most issues you will have, and long before you get results that , even if correct, may not tell you anything.
 
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ReefRxSWFL

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Please post the results and the two companies used. Otherwise this is a waste of time. I recently sent out two ICP tests, one to ICP-Analysis and Reef-Labs. Both showed pretty much the same deficiencies. I’m satisfied and now going to start dosing some trace elements.
Glad it worked out for you.
 

thatmanMIKEson

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I've never tried ICP, its to costly for me, if I could buy tests in bulk and sell single tests to my friends and local reef heads, basically so I could test for free I would do it. I would probably end up using all my own tests, then get addicted to testing, start selling off my reef to pay for more tests, its a downward spiral for me so I just stay away...:beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes:
 

Dan_P

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I have read up on the Moonshiner process. They rely on icp test to maintain their systems with no water changes. How are they successful at the adds they do if the tests are not accurate?
They use icp to add many different elements.
If icp is that inaccurate then how are they getting the results they attribute to their method?
Just wondering as I do not run their method.
One answer is that there is a wide latitude in trace element concentration that coral can tolerate which makes ICP testing unnecessary. Said differently, you can be successful with or without ICP testing.
.
This hobby seems to be littered with ideas experts say are musts for success only to be shown later to be not so critical. ICP testing might join this collection of ideas.
 
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ReefRxSWFL

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Ive done a tank with the MUSTS for success.

An IM 20g AIO
Sicce 1.0 return
Radion G4 XR 15 (Its what I had laying around)
Tunze 6040
Inkbird/heater
Two chunklive rock
Bucket Reef Crystals

Thats 7 items and 4 plugs. There are the musts. If it wasn't an AIO, i would have only needed 3 plugs.

Any “expert “ who says thats missing any musts is someone with something to sell, or doesnt know the definition of the word “must”.

Never tested anything other than salinity when i mixed the saltwater, and topped off manually.

2 clowns
Tuxido urchin
2 goniastrias
1 Kenya Tree
1 Cauliastria
1 Space Invader Chalice
Few mushrooms

All set up same day with gear, fish, rock and coral. I ran it for a little over a year doing 2 x 5 gallon water changes per month. Now I just use that tank for coral quarantine.
 

X-37B

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Ive done a tank with the MUSTS for success.

An IM 20g AIO
Sicce 1.0 return
Radion G4 XR 15 (Its what I had laying around)
Tunze 6040
Inkbird/heater
Two chunklive rock
Bucket Reef Crystals

Thats 7 items and 4 plugs. There are the musts. If it wasn't an AIO, i would have only needed 3 plugs.

Any “expert “ who says thats missing any musts is someone with something to sell, or doesnt know the definition of the word “must”.

Never tested anything other than salinity when i mixed the saltwater, and topped off manually.

2 clowns
Tuxido urchin
2 goniastrias
1 Kenya Tree
1 Cauliastria
1 Space Invader Chalice
Few mushrooms

All set up same day with gear, fish, rock and coral. I ran it for a little over a year doing 2 x 5 gallon water changes per month. Now I just use that tank for coral quarantine.
Nice and same here!
My current 20g nano cube.
2g water change a month.
No heater
2 16hds
1 ow-25
1 Tunze return pump
1 Tunze ato
All live rock and water from current systems
2 cardinals
1 six line
25 snails
1 hermit
1 emerald
2 peppermint
32+ acros
1 gorgonian
Couple bunches of red macro
Keep it simple has been my motto for 30+ years.
20220505_160330.jpg
 

JCM

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Ive done a tank with the MUSTS for success.

An IM 20g AIO
Sicce 1.0 return
Radion G4 XR 15 (Its what I had laying around)
Tunze 6040
Inkbird/heater
Two chunklive rock
Bucket Reef Crystals

Thats 7 items and 4 plugs. There are the musts. If it wasn't an AIO, i would have only needed 3 plugs.

Any “expert “ who says thats missing any musts is someone with something to sell, or doesnt know the definition of the word “must”.

Never tested anything other than salinity when i mixed the saltwater, and topped off manually.

2 clowns
Tuxido urchin
2 goniastrias
1 Kenya Tree
1 Cauliastria
1 Space Invader Chalice
Few mushrooms

All set up same day with gear, fish, rock and coral. I ran it for a little over a year doing 2 x 5 gallon water changes per month. Now I just use that tank for coral quarantine.

Since when is an inkbird a must
 

Sean Clark

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I did some ICP testing for the sole purpose of checking for things like Al from the bio-bricks, or possibly metals I didnt want in there, not for the nonsense in the results, like “you need vanadium”. But what i did get is confirmation how useless they actually are.

It would be important to get confirmation that the hobby grade kits you use keep you in the ballpark, so, of course, dKh, Ca, Mg, Nitrate, phosphate, maybe iodine, manganese, iron, potassium……

So after that first round, i decided to send that lab 3 tests, but from the same tank, at the same exact time and labeled as 3 different tanks. The results should have been the same, or at least similar, right?

So, i ordered 3 tests from another, did the same thing, and again…. Results should have been the same? Similar?

yeah, both answers are no. How are they getting away with this?

do they have Phd Chemists operating the machine, or just some dude with a liberal arts degree and has a fish tank and started a YouTube channel?

now, i do have experience using a mass-spec, and when I used on samples, the same sample when rechecked, had the same exact results.

Im sure someone is going to say how well ICP does for them, but for me, Shenanigans confirmed.
If you provided the six ICP test results that would be helpful for everyone to interpret the results.
 

mindme

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This thread is useless without results being posted. Margins of error are to be expected with any testing.
 

mindme

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I have read up on the Moonshiner process. They rely on icp test to maintain their systems with no water changes. How are they successful at the adds they do if the tests are not accurate?
They use icp to add many different elements.
If icp is that inaccurate then how are they getting the results they attribute to their method?
Just wondering as I do not run their method.

It's done with ATI tests, which according to another thread is more accurate than the 2 companies the OP tested at. I think the guy who does it tested them all and settled on that one. Seems the recent thread about the accuracy of these confirmed it.

But there is a margin of error in these things. 1 month they said I had copper, and lots of other people reported getting copper back in a result. It was a tiny amount, below harmful ranges, so I ignored it and the next test it was gone. And then I'm sure the levels they report can be off a little also. No doubt that was a calibration type error of some sort on their machines.

What is important is really the trends the elements are moving rather than exact numbers. For example some elements only get dosed once a month. So those elements are going to start out higher and get lower by the end of the month. But they shouldn't bottom out and it won't be like going months without them.

And then you can also see if an element is trending high and stop dosing on it as much etc.

There are like 5 or 6 elements that get dosed daily, due to higher oxidation/usage etc. Most of those are based on your water volume. You can dose those pretty much without testing, because on the tests they should come back as 0, and if they don't, you stop dosing them or reduce how much you dose. People double the daily doses often if they have a refugium.

It's funny that people make out as if I'm stressing over every little thing, or that it's difficult/lot of work. It's actually nothing like that. The exact numbers are not all that important. It's just the number you use to make the calculations and want to match. If it's off a little, not the end of the world.

Then I dose the amount it tells me. I spend less than 2 minutes dosing a day. It's actually so easy to dose and I know I'm being consistent that I'm considering removing alk and calcium off my dosing pump. The only reason I haven't so far is that I like the night time dosing of alk to help balance the ph, and that it doses multiple times a day in smaller doses.

It's really nothing complicated at all.
 

EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal

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It is bottled trace elements like Triton. I was just curiois as to how they get the said results by adding many different elements using icp.
They are all sent to Germany so their is a 2 week lag time.

I sent a sample to Triton icp in LA.
Their results were close enough to my test that I would probably not use them again. This was from a tank with no issues and 2 years old.
See, you're asking all the right questions... could it be that using MS is flushing $ down the toilet? Who knows?
 

mindme

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Unless you have a problem you can’t identify any other way, i don't see whats useful about it Guess I just wanted to see what the cool kids do. I essentially wanted to check if I had any metals, bc nothing else was of value to me. Ive been doing this almost 25 years without it, so, yeah. Maybe Neptune can come up with one to plug into the Ape

i didnt want to throw a brand under the bus, but what the heck. It was Triton and ICP-Analysis.

Also, i dont see the value in doing it routinely. Do you know what happens to a reef tank with low vanadium? High boron?

Maybe RHF does, but ive found most of my success by keeping things simple. If something seems wrong with your tank, and you cant identify it, a large OG water change will fix most issues you will have, and long before you get results that , even if correct, may not tell you anything.

You can certainly grow corals with other methods, I did it for 10 years. But I don't think you'll get the same amount of growth and color with just water changes. I certainly didn't anyway.

And as for not seeing the value. Are you talking about trace elements or testing them?

Do you know why your coral perk up when you do water changes? Because you replenished a small amount of the trace elements in the water. The water change perk goes away after a few days, because the 20% of the elements they get max isn't really cutting it. They survive, grow a little, but they don't thrive.

That perk is full time when you give a crap about low vanadium and high boron levels.
 

mindme

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It is bottled trace elements like Triton. I was just curiois as to how they get the said results by adding many different elements using icp.
They are all sent to Germany so their is a 2 week lag time.

I sent a sample to Triton icp in LA.
Their results were close enough to my test that I would probably not use them again. This was from a tank with no issues and 2 years old.

I get my samples back in about a week most of the time. They get shipped to a place in the US, then bulk shipped to Germany. They ship on Tuesdays and Thursday IIRC. So if you send your sample on Thursday, it will probably take the longest at about 1.5 weeks. But if you ship on a Monday, you can get them back as quick as Friday, or Monday at the latest.

You can ship them directly to Germany if you really want, but then I'm guessing you have to pay for the shipping, so screw that.
 

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