ICP. Ho.. Huh, What is it goo-ood for? Absolutely….

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ReefRxSWFL

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Is there proof they are?

Nobody does blind tests with controls in this industry - so there's no real good way to tell if moonshiners ICP based testing is really any better than just dosing whatever the bottle says. People love their methods and systems.

There's testimonials, sure - but testimonials are prone to placebo effect and unconscious biases.
Yes. Everyone wants a shot at renaming chemistry and all the elements on the Zeovitic Table.
 
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ReefRxSWFL

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Is there proof they are?

Nobody does blind tests with controls in this industry - so there's no real good way to tell if moonshiners ICP based testing is really any better than just dosing whatever the bottle says. People love their methods and systems.

There's testimonials, sure - but testimonials are prone to placebo effect and unconscious biases.
You need to double blind test to remove bias, but yes sir. You are correct. And testimonials without bias or agenda are rare
 
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ReefRxSWFL

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I suppose all their customers are the only proof they need. They use ati only and say others are not accurate or test for enough elements.
I am just pondering the question as they have a large following.
I have no interest in using their method but am interested as to why so many follow their lead.
If you talk to people that use their system they will argue that theirs is the best and brings the most color.
I do not have the time or patience to argue with the know it all reefers. But thats just me.
Customers does not equal proof.
 
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ReefRxSWFL

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Thanks! That makes more sense to me. I am just not a fan of adding elements that are not proven usefull.
RHF is correct, although, i dont know why Im saying that, considering its what he does.

Also, I don’t recommend adding anything you are not going to test for.
 

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I can see it as a useful test if you are trying to rule out a specific issue, but as a parameter test or additive prescription absolutely not. As mentioned plenty times above…. Too many unknowns, and sometimes it creates worry for things that are harmless.
certainly an advanced reefer tool imo.
 

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Yes, different priorities apparently. I will always rant against products and companies that mislead reefers.
I apologize. I am not feeling my best at times and it is affecting my interactions with people.

Please explain to me the current expectation that companies will simply divulge the contents of proprietary products if asked. I am sure many have a good reason not to. I don't believe there is any legal reason for them to. Perhaps some of them are just not very good at not telling you what you want to know and make a larger problem for themselves.

There are many many threads here where commonly used products are not used per the directions and then claimed to not work or cause harm. Then there are the joiners who have no experience with the product but add their unfounded opinions. I am starting to see some that appear to be nothing more that internet attention seeking.

The opinions of people like me that have used these products many times safely and to the benefit of our system at that time are simply discounted.

I do not believe that the hobby will benefit by creating a general air of distrust between the hobbyists and the makers of the products we may need to rely on at times.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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I apologize. I am not feeling my best at times and it is affecting my interactions with people.

Please explain to me the current expectation that companies will simply divulge the contents of proprietary products if asked. I am sure many have a good reason not to. I don't believe there is any legal reason for them to. Perhaps some of them are just not very good at not telling you what you want to know and make a larger problem for themselves.

There are many many threads here where commonly used products are not used per the directions and then claimed to not work or cause harm. Then there are the joiners who have no experience with the product but add their unfounded opinions. I am starting to see some that appear to be nothing more that internet attention seeking.

The opinions of people like me that have used these products many times safely and to the benefit of our system at that time are simply discounted.

I do not believe that the hobby will benefit by creating a general air of distrust between the hobbyists and the makers of the products we may need to rely on at times.

I appreciate the comment. Thanks.

I do not expect all companies to divulge ingredients. I may choose to not use them for that reason, but it’s a fine business choice.

I do expect that companies that purport to divulge ingredients or make claims about how the product works are not intentionally, or through their own ignorance, misleading reefers into misunderstanding the product.

That’s the line that if they cross, I rant.

Some companies rarely or never cross that line (ESV, Tropic Marin) and some do it so often it is second nature to them. I wont harp on the names of the poster children for that set of companies, but frequent readers will know them, and they include some of the biggest names in the hobby supply business.
 
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rtparty

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You know who discounts ICP testing (from trusted sources) and trace element dosing? Those who have never done it.

You know who pushes water changes the most? Salt companies and vendors. And old time reefers who have never tried anything else.

Do water changes do something positive? Absolutely. Is it what is claimed by so many? Nope and there is no math or science to prove their point. Are they a MUST for success? Not even close.

As someone who follows the Reef Moonshiners method do I need to know exactly what happens if nickel is too low or Vanadium is too high? Nope. I'm not trying to peg my numbers to an exact. Just like alkalinity, calcium, magnesium, etc...I'm looking for a range best I can.

The OP's credibility is thrown out the window when they won't provide results and take jabs at people who they clearly know nothing about. But this isn't the first or last time they'll make large, sweeping generalizations attacking others.

The mullet and baseball cap guy he insulted earlier doesn't even push ICP testing. He simply says it's a tool that can be useful but often times isn't needed.

So flame on haters. Explain to me how the results I'm seeing are wrong. Explain to me how I'm wasting money (thanks Dad but it's my money) by sending off ICP and dosing a few things. Tell me how I should be wasting 1000s gallons of water doing water changes in an area where water restrictions are already in place with the threat of our secondary water being completely shut off. Indoor water restrictions are on the table. Tell me how changing water weekly with salts (known to have issues over the years) is the best route forward.
 

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I have tried ICP testing... bought a bunch from different sources. We have one in town that a lot of people use with a VERY quick turnaround. I have seen how they work, how they test, what equipment that they use and who runs them. I have mailed away to the EU for some. I have sent in 3 water samples from the same tank at the same time and got +/- 300% variance from the same place. I have sent multiples out to different places and the results are just a different. I stopped.

I have used them, understand them and I still discount them.

For the record, I don't see ICP companies promising too many things. It is mostly recommendations from hobbyists, but most of these cannot do math, do not understand basic reef chemistry, think that nitrate and nitrogen are the same thing, etc. I just want people to understand what they are getting into, which is still just a swag that leads to more questions than answers.

I am happy if people are happy to use them, but it is apparent to me that most think that they are getting something that they are not. I don't care how people spend their money and nobody should - however, if we do not help people to spend it in a way that works best for their situation, animals suffer and the hobby suffers since money is a limited resource to most.

I will always recommend water changes for people who are having unknown trouble. It is the ultimate reset/reboot button. It works more often, and for longer, than ICP tests have. I feel that the money is better spent on salt and RO water than sending out a test - at 176 gallons for a $32 box of IO, this can do more good to most tanks that are having problems. I know enough to know what ICP is and does. I also know enough not to mix regular water change type of arguments with reboot/reset type of water change arguments.
 

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Have you verified scientifically thats why corals perk up? Because marine biologists thatI know can not confirm that.

How do you know its not the nurtient reduction, and now, the corals are sticking out their tongues to catch more nutrients?

How do you know it isnt because of the reduction of organic acids, which dont neutralize with carbonates or bicarbonates?

When you have a doctorate or even a masters, you tend not to base assumptions or beliefs you read on forums, then spit them out as fact.

If you know thats what happens with water changes and trace, and its effects on corals, you should publish so your assertion can be reviewed to verify its accuracy.

Because no one in the scientific community has been able to show what you claim. Good job!

Yeah man, everything I do in my tank is verified scientifically.

0a60f4bc-a93a-4428-b3b4-570e4bc5ba5c_text.gif


Meanwhile, you made this thread which is anything but scientific.
 

mindme

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No one has EVER proven that corals need trace elements at any given concentration. As long as there is enough for them to get what they need, but not enough to be toxic, that may be all corals care about.

So if you dose lots of different trace elements, regardless of whether you use ICP or not, you may hit that window much better than people who do not dose those same elements.

Thus, moonshiners can be wildly successful without that being evidence that ICP is particularly accurate for any given element.

How long has it been since you had a reef tank? Have you actually ever tried any of the methods you dismiss?

Let's see the results of the RHF method.
 

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When push comes to shove in this hobby I ask for one thing from the experts. Show me your system!
I ran my 120 for 18 months with no water changes. You can go back and follow it from day one.
I was successfull, imo.
I only do 10% once a month to remove things we cant test for or see.
So when I hear people giving advice the first thing I do is check their build thread or ask for pics.

Im done on this one guys and gals.
 

mindme

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Is there proof they are?

Nobody does blind tests with controls in this industry - so there's no real good way to tell if moonshiners ICP based testing is really any better than just dosing whatever the bottle says. People love their methods and systems.

There's testimonials, sure - but testimonials are prone to placebo effect and unconscious biases.

The difference is large enough that you can visually see the differences.

If there is an issue with the method, it's the costs. However thus far outside the initial investment($400+), it's been coming in around the price of water changes when I average it out over months.

If anyone thinks trace elements aren't a big deal, make the same mistake I did when I started my 180g, don't do a water change for 3 months and don't add trace elements because you think they'll last a long time and aren't that important.

They'll get depleted and your coral will brown and suffer. Then without doing a water change, just add in trace elements. You'll see the coral suddenly bounce back and thrive in less than 2 weeks, most of them within days.

After that, you'll never question the need for trace elements.
 

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The difference is large enough that you can visually see the differences.

If there is an issue with the method, it's the costs. However thus far outside the initial investment($400+), it's been coming in around the price of water changes when I average it out over months.

If anyone thinks trace elements aren't a big deal, make the same mistake I did when I started my 180g, don't do a water change for 3 months and don't add trace elements because you think they'll last a long time and aren't that important.

They'll get depleted and your coral will brown and suffer. Then without doing a water change, just add in trace elements. You'll see the coral suddenly bounce back and thrive in less than 2 weeks, most of them within days.

After that, you'll never question the need for trace elements.
One last thing. I have dosed trace elements on all my systems from day one.
I have been contemplating trying the MS on one of my systems but my current trace dosing has worked well for over 6 years now so?
 

mindme

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When push comes to shove in this hobby I ask for one thing from the experts. Show me your system!
I ran my 120 for 18 months with no water changes. You can go back and follow it from day one.
I was successfull, imo.
I only do 10% once a month to remove things we cant test for or see.
So when I hear people giving advice the first thing I do is check their build thread or ask for pics.

Im done on this one guys and gals.

6 months ago for me. I wasn't on moonshine at this point, I was using Tropic Marine a- and k+ for trace elements. That method also works, I only switched because some elements were being used at a different rate than others, but the elements for them come in 2 bottles total. So when I started to see elements trending up, there wasn't much I could do about the individual element.

Most of these coral have grown to double the size since these pictures, except the Acans. They are roughly the same size, except they have twice as many heads. I'm not sure why they aren't as puffy as before, if it's something in the water, or if it's because they are making room for the other heads.

Left side:

BFdhcAE.jpg


Right side:

dwoYfkM.jpg


Some individual coral:

FFnxMDb.jpg


X1KF57j.jpg

This thing is now 3 times the size of this pic:

YOekVpk.jpg


The rock here towards the right with all the leptastrea on it is now almost 90% covered.

V3bdXah.jpg


Another acan/micro(I love these things).

uM5yu7z.jpg


I'm not going to be winning any awards for most beautiful tank or anything, but I am pleased with my coral growth.
 

NowGlazeIT

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I did some ICP testing for the sole purpose of checking for things like Al from the bio-bricks, or possibly metals I didnt want in there, not for the nonsense in the results, like “you need vanadium”. But what i did get is confirmation how useless they actually are.

It would be important to get confirmation that the hobby grade kits you use keep you in the ballpark, so, of course, dKh, Ca, Mg, Nitrate, phosphate, maybe iodine, manganese, iron, potassium……

So after that first round, i decided to send that lab 3 tests, but from the same tank, at the same exact time and labeled as 3 different tanks. The results should have been the same, or at least similar, right?

So, i ordered 3 tests from another, did the same thing, and again…. Results should have been the same? Similar?

yeah, both answers are no. How are they getting away with this?

do they have Phd Chemists operating the machine, or just some dude with a liberal arts degree and has a fish tank and started a YouTube channel?

now, i do have experience using a mass-spec, and when I used on samples, the same sample when rechecked, had the same exact results.

Im sure someone is going to say how well ICP does for them, but for me, Shenanigans confirmed.
Daaaang I’ve always wanted to try this! Well done
 

mindme

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One last thing. I have dosed trace elements on all my systems from day one.
I have been contemplating trying the MS on one of my systems but my current trace dosing has worked well for over 6 years now so?

If your current method is working, I don't think I'd switch. I only switched because I don't run a bunch of SPS and my element usage is just apparently different than the balance found in the other bottles.

No reason to fix what isn't broken IMO.
 

X-37B

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6 months ago for me. I wasn't on moonshine at this point, I was using Tropic Marine a- and k+ for trace elements. That method also works, I only switched because some elements were being used at a different rate than others, but the elements for them come in 2 bottles total. So when I started to see elements trending up, there wasn't much I could do about the individual element.

Most of these coral have grown to double the size since these pictures, except the Acans. They are roughly the same size, except they have twice as many heads. I'm not sure why they aren't as puffy as before, if it's something in the water, or if it's because they are making room for the other heads.

Left side:

BFdhcAE.jpg


Right side:

dwoYfkM.jpg


Some individual coral:

FFnxMDb.jpg


X1KF57j.jpg

This thing is now 3 times the size of this pic:

YOekVpk.jpg


The rock here towards the right with all the leptastrea on it is now almost 90% covered.

V3bdXah.jpg


Another acan/micro(I love these things).

uM5yu7z.jpg


I'm not going to be winning any awards for most beautiful tank or anything, but I am pleased with my coral growth.
Nice system! Pics are worth a thousand words. Keep up the good work.
 

rtparty

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One last thing. I have dosed trace elements on all my systems from day one.
I have been contemplating trying the MS on one of my systems but my current trace dosing has worked well for over 6 years now so?

You know the saying, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Even before I headed down the RM method, my motto was some trace elements are better than none but less is better than more
 

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